Alison : Okay.

Jean: I haven’t seen you in, like, two weeks.

Alison : Yeah, I know, because you went to the East Coast, for your nephew’s…. what would you say that was – a graduation?.

Jean: Graduation from the marine, yeah, from the Marines, which was, uh, in Parris Island, South Carolina.

Alison : Wow.

Jean: right after all those hurricanes.

Alison : Yes. God bless those…

Jean: God bless all the people.

Alison : And, um… And that must have been…. you didn’t get any of that though there?

Jean:  no, no there were no, we didn’t get any rain. It was windy. And you could feel in the sky like an ominous type feeling. But no, we got no rain. And I was though, thinking about all the people and, you know, that have been affected by the hurricanes.

Alison : Love out to my family that was in Asheville, are in Asheville. And how shocking and brave they are. And they’re all coming together and just the sense of community and the love and just know that we’re sending you so much love and so much from all over. So just thinking about you all the time.

Jean: Yeah, that is true. We are.

Amy : And today we’re having a good interview with the woman that actually interviewed us!

Jean: That’s right, doctor Amy Robbins. And she she’s quite, um- she’s very interesting to me. She’s a psychologist, and she’s also a spiritual intuitive. So she definitely is a bridge between the spiritual and the scientific world. And I think she has a lot of beautiful wisdom. And I can’t wait for our interview.

Alison : It’s going to be exciting. She’s  so interesting and smart, and it was fun to get  to know her the other way—Like she talking to, asking us questions. And now we get to to have the opportunity to do it right back.

Jean: Right. And I think one of the gifts that she brings is her her depth of her questions.. Thought that was great.

Alison : She’s great, so here we go.

Jean: Okay.

Amy : Hi.

Alison : Hi again.

Amy : How are you guys?

Alison : Good. I feel like… I feel like we’re friends, and we should just do this once a week.

Amy : I know, I know, that’s what I said after I got off…. when I did my pre-recording, I was like, I feel like I got off my just got off with, like, my two good girlfriends.

Alison : Exactly.

Jean: So true. Oh, it’s so great to see you, Amy.

Amy : You, too.

Amy : How are you guys?

Alison : We’re good.  It’s chilly here.

Amy : Oh, I know here, too. I just cranked up my heat.

Alison : Really?

Amy : I think you expect that here, not there.

Alison : Yeah, I know…We have different ideas of chilly. If it goes into the 60s here, I’m cold.

Amy : Now –  yeah, that’s where we are. About 60s.

Alison : Really? ,Yeah, it’s it’s funny, you know, it was funny to, um, have you interview us and then now me, like, really listening to all your podcasts and getting to know you more. And I was like, and I was saying to my friend, I was listening with my friend Suzanne, and I was like, um, Suzanne says she’s very serious. And I said, no, no, not at all. She’s she’s just as goofy as the rest of us. Do you know, because on your podcast, you’re, you know, really right there and so present. It’s such a such a great podcast.

Amy : Thank you. Thank you. Serious. I know it’s so funny that it’s funny. I did a, um, zoom last night for my, like, Patreon supporters, and this woman was like, oh my God, I can’t believe it’s you. I hear you. And I’m like, it’s me. Like. Yeah, it’s me. Like I’m just me.

Alison : Exactly.

Jean: But I think that that is so true that people, um, people that they either hear on audio or certainly see on TV or on a screen a movie person, and when they see them in real, like in life, it’s, oh my gosh, you really eat chicken and you really, you know, blow your nose in person..

Amy : You poop too?  hahah

Jean: You poop too? hahah

Alison : Those are the three things that are life….chicken, nose blowing and pooping. And then then.

Amy :  Totally right.  That’s all.

Jean: I remember someone came up to me and they said, wow, what does your husband eat for dinner? I said, chicken, rice and broccoli.  The same that we all eat.

Alison : Little cards with questions on them…

Alison : But that’s too funny. Well, thank you for doing this with us.

Amy : Oh my god, I’m so excited.

Alison : So tell us how you actually began your journey. Because you’re a very interesting mix of science and spirituality.

Amy : Yeah. So when I was 18 years old, my aunt died. Um, she was waiting for a kidney and pancreas transplant. She had juvenile onset diabetes that, um, she had, she had the– they used to radiate your tonsils when you were young. Um, that was like the treatment for it. And as a result of that radiation, she developed an autoimmune disorder that then they think turned into diabetes. And my grandfather was a pediatrician. So, as you can imagine, like this was this was really horrifying for him at the time, because I think he blamed himself for what happened to her. Um, but she was waiting for a kidney and pancreas transplant, and in order to receive the transplant, they needed to, like, make sure that all, everything else was going to be, all of her organs were okay. They had found out that she had had several heart attacks, and so they needed to go in and repair her heart in order for her to move up on the transplant list. And when they went to prepare that, when they went to repair her heart, they realized they couldn’t get it started again. Um, so she died on the table. She was my age now, which to me is like it… It brings it to a whole different level of of how young she was and how much more life she had ahead of her. She had two young kids. My cousins were in, um, high school and college at the time and I… It really shook me to my core.

Amy : She was like a second mother to me as well. Like, she spent a lot of time at our house because she had gone through a really challenging divorce… And my mom was her, i mean, she was her everything. Like, my mom helped her through everything. And so it was really crushing for me, for my family. And it was the first out of order, like, close to me, what I call an out of order death. Right? Like, she was she was young and she had young kids and and I, I struggled with now kind of in retrospect, what I realized was my grief and how it manifested was anxiety, and it was anxiety around what my life was going to look like. And, and would I be able to kind of support myself because she, in her, and this might be getting into like a lot of details, but she and her marriage…. Um, she had stepped away from working and she had, like her husband, was very successful, and then they went through a really terrible divorce and she kind of was left with nothing. And so she had to go back to work and she didn’t really have a career. So she went back to work. And the conditions at work because of her diabetes resulted in like illness, you know, the the circulation issues and like all of these problems.

Amy : And so in my kind of psyche, how I made sense of it was like, if I can’t rely on myself, then what will happen to me? And so it really spun out into a lot of anxiety. And just when I went to get my first, like when I was applying for jobs in college, I had my first panic attack because I was getting rejected and rejected and rejected. And I then realized I needed to go to therapy, which I did, and but never really connected the two pieces together that that my anxiety was a lot of grief and a lot of the kind of sense that I had made around what her death meant to me. Um, and so fast forward to graduate school. I mean, I sunk into a pretty deep depression after that. I was working at a job I was not happy with, um, living at home after college, I ended up quitting my job, waiting tables, and I had a great I mean, I went to the University of Michigan and I was like, waiting tables. And so there was that dissonance within me too like, how did I have this great degree, and not to minimize… I mean, I think waiting tables is actually probably the hardest job, and I think everybody should do it because it really gives you an incredible peek into..

Jean: Service.

Amy : Yeah, yeah, service. And I mean, I still carry in my wallet to this day a person who’s nice to you, but not to the waiter, is not a nice person.

Jean: Totally.

Alison : Yes, totally.

Jean: It’s those little things.

Amy : Yeah. And it was a insight into humanity. At that time, I decided I wanted to go back to grad school. I was volunteering at Children’s Memorial Hospital here in Chicago and decided I wanted to go back to grad school for psychology. And about a year and a half into my program, I had my first visit from my aunt. So it was around the time of my cousin’s wedding. I did not know what a visit was. I did not know that you could be visited by loved ones. I thought it was a dream and my aunt, it was right before my cousin’s wedding, so my aunt came to me and she showed me an image in my mind’s eye of my mom standing at the kitchen sink in the house I grew up in, and she said to me, uh, tell your mom not to be upset. I’ll be at the wedding. And then I saw another image of my uncle, her brother, and she said, let him know that I see him. I hear him when he talks to me, when he’s out pushing the stroller and talking to me. I had a much I have a much younger cousin and I kind of woke up and my husband, I turned to my husband and I said, Aunt Linda was just here. And he was like, what are you talking about? Interestingly, my dog also was barking at that time, so I felt like there was some energetic shift that happened. And I called my mom and I said, mom, I had this crazy dream last night with Aunt Linda, and she told me, you don’t need to be upset. You don’t need to cry. She’ll be at the wedding. And my mom started crying and she said, I was standing at the kitchen sink last night, and I was talking to her and I said, I can’t believe you’re not going to be there. I can’t believe you’re not going to be at this wedding.

Alison : Wow.

Amy : And then I called my uncle, who’s an orthopedic surgeon. So these are not exactly people who are of the mindset that, like, the soul exists and consciousness exists across space and time. And I told him the same thing, and he said, well, when I talked to, that’s when I talked to her, when I’m outside and I’m walking and I’m pushing their son in the stroller, and that’s when I connect with her.  And I was like, okay, there’s something here.

Alison : Yeah.

Amy : But I really didn’t know. I mean, now mediumship is like in the zeitgeist. People talk about it. It’s not, it doesn’t feel like some closeted thing. But then, here I am in graduate school for psychology. And I have this experience, and I’m not sure what to make of it or how to understand it or how to conceptualize it. Maybe it was just a dream, but there was something about it. Because if you’ve had a visit, you know it’s not a dream. It is as real as you and I are sitting here talking. That is how real it is. It’s linear. It doesn’t have those like amalgamations of people who represent other people who look like your mom, but really they’re your sister, your whatever it is. And I reached out to a professor and who taught indigenous healing practices, but was also really grounded in traditional psychotherapy. And I told her, I had this experience, what happened? And she said, I think it was a visit, and I think you’re opening up to something. And at that point I was like, okay, like, I didn’t really know what to do with that.  She said, well keep talking to your aunt. And I’m like, okay, this is like a little bit crazy town for me. What do you mean? Just keep talking? She’s like, just talk to her. It takes a lot of energy for the spirit to come in and you have to meet their vibration. Now, these words to me were, like, completely foreign. I was like, what is vibration and energy like? None of that was anywhere in my zeitgeist. Anywhere. And so I did. I started talking to her and I said, you know, show us that you’re going to be at the wedding and give us a sign. I mean, I read like Sylvia Browne. I think my professor told me to read. And I just started talking to her and I said, you know, show us a sign. And my aunt loved Neil Diamond. So I said, show us Neil Diamond. And we picked up my sister from the airport, and my sister got in the car and immediately a Neil Diamond song came on the radio and I was like, all right, well, this is all…. And everybody at the wedding was like, is she here? Is she here? Like, is Aunt Lynn, do you feel her? And I didn’t know anything at this time. I mean, I just had this experience and and I really moved on after the wedding, I was like, okay, I had this experience and I didn’t think anything of it.

Amy : And then my papa died, and then it happened again. And then, um,  similar thing…. I had a cousin getting married and he came to me with some information from her. I shared it with her. It was accurate. And then it started happening with patient’s loved ones. Where, I start, it was always in this dream like state, but it was always early in the morning before I woke up and they started bringing me messages and I was like, okay, now this is like, this is getting a little this is out of my wheelhouse of my own family, right?—when other people’s loved ones are coming to me and my patients are not coming to me for that purpose. What do you want me to…. I didn’t know what to do. And so at that point, I went back to this professor who had given me the name of a medium, and she was like, I think you need to go and work with this person and see, like, get my lights in my house were going crazy. My husband was starting to be like, I don’t believe in any of this, but I don’t understand how to explain this.

Amy : And yeah, and that was really kind of these, these parallel path of journeys where psychology was very much driving me. But the spiritual side of me was kind of quietly closeted and speak –like going through all of this behind the scenes. And as my life unfolded and I had young kids and everything, like it would get pushed to the side, but it would creep back in…. And finally I, I listened and I explored mediumship and I did what I called my medium internship because I’m such an academic that I was like, I cannot just like say I’m a medium—so I like studied with her for two years and did readings for friends and family and then was like, okay, that’s maybe not for me because I really enjoy doing like really deep work with people. I’m a long term therapist. I work with people for many, many years, and it felt like not quite enough. And then I had this experience where a friend came over for a reading, and I did this reading for her, and at the end of the reading I said, I’m seeing this ring, this gold ring with a blue stone. And there were other things that I’d said in the reading. And she was like, yeah, that could be my father in law.

Speaker3: And so she’s like, yeah, my father in law didn’t have this a ring. And she goes home and she tells her husband and he says, my dad did not wear jewelry. It just was not his thing. And then he goes home to his home that he grew up in that next weekend. And as he walks in the house and his mom comes out and she says, I just found this ring of your dad’s, I think he’d want you to have it. And it was the exact ring that I had described in this reading. And that’s when I was like, okay, there’s like even more to this. But I was I sort of likened myself to like to Goldilocks, like the, you know, one thing was too hard, one thing was too soft. So I’ve been trying and I think I’m still kind of trying to find my like, where, where do I land in all of this? What is the sweet spot for me? Where’s the glass slipper that feels like it fits my foot? Because I don’t see myself as a medium. Because I really feel like I there are some amazing, amazing mediums out there. Amazing. That’s not me. Um, but the therapist part of me just can’t not embrace this part of myself.

Alison : Right…do you find, like, with those patients where you would get, like, a message–  what would you do?  would you say the message?

Amy : So I wouldn’t say the message, but I would try to kind of weave in questions that would, like, validate whether or not it was true. Like the best example that I have of this is I’ve had a couple of times where I’ve felt like I’ve, um, seen or had hits of past lives of patients where I get a very clear image of what it looks like, where they were. And that’s a little bit easier for me to kind of maneuver around, because I can use what I’m seeing and say, like, I feel like you felt like, um,— You were a lady in waiting. This was a specific example of someone who felt like they were kind of always waiting for people. Um, and so I would say, like, it felt like you were, you’re a lady in waiting. And the image that I had in my mind was, was this woman in kind of like a brothel, like waiting for the men, not a lady in waiting, but like a, you know, a brothel. Like waiting for the men to come in. And whenever they came, it was like there for her. And when they they left, it was like she was forgotten about. And then I would see what the response was to that. And so if the response was like, oh my God, yes, I’m like, okay, so maybe there’s more now, do I know for sure that was the past life?

Amy : But there’s something that resonated with her soul in that moment. The same with I’ve had. Sometimes I’ll sit in meditation and just say like, okay, where is the stuckness for this person? Like, help me see where along the way they got stuck. And then I’ll bring that into the session. Not saying like, oh, I sat in meditation and I saw that maybe you were stuck in this. Although my patients now know this about me so I can be a little bit more free with it.

Amy : But I would say something like, you know, did something happen around the age of ten where maybe you were feeling very alone? And then I’ll see where they go with it. And so it’s more woven in that way rather than like your dead cousin’s here talking to me. Although I have done that, too, if it comes through and it’s very strong. Some people’s loved ones are a little bit more, are a little bit pushier than others. And so I’ve had some that have been quite pushy and I’m like, I, I’m sorry, I can’t, I actually can’t continue like doing the therapy right now. I feel like your so and so is here. Are you okay with me sharing information they might be bringing forth?

Jean: And what’s the usual response? Do they say yes?

Amy : Yeah.

Jean: Because I think, Amy, it’s it’s such a beautiful gift, if you will, that you offer some additional insight to your patient’s quest for releasing trauma, anxiety, whatever the the thing is. Um, I think that’s just so beautiful. And, um, do you think this is something that any of us can learn to talk to our loved ones that have gone beyond?

Amy : Absolutely. But I think how we think about I think sometimes we get hung up in how we think about what that communication is going to look like. So for some, it might be that you clearly hear those messages, but for others, I was just in a call. I’m doing a course right now, and we were talking about how information can come in, and one of the women in my course was saying that she opened up this book and she was reading the book, and she realized there was something in the book that really resonated with her… And it’s like the messages I feel like can come through in all kinds of different ways. But what happens often is we are so unconscious in our lives, and we are so not present that we don’t see those messages when they come through. And I think so many people think, I want to feel like I feel like you and I right now, we’re sitting across talking to each other, and it’s not…. It’s for some people it can be like that, but it doesn’t mean that’s the only way to have that relationship anymore.

Amy : And I think that people need to be open one, it’s a muscle, and I think the more you use it, the the stronger it gets. And I always equate it to like there’s Michael Jordans, right. Like Michael Jordan is the best, one of the best basketball players of all time and had some natural talents. But there are other basketball players who are really, really good and practice and practice and practice. I would never be a Michael Jordan of mediumship. I just it’s not there for me. But if I practice and when I’m more present and when I’m meditating daily and when I’m connecting daily, that I know that that switch goes on much easier than when I’m like embroiled in the, you know, who’s going to get dinner on the table and, um, who’s picking up my son from football practice today, right. Yeah. So like those, you know, those daily life, uh, experiences for me, take me out of that connection sometimes, which can be a little bit frustrating, but I can’t always live in that space of like, expansiveness, despite what I wish I could do.

Alison : So you talk to so many people on your podcast about this and so, so many…. unbelievable…I just listened to the  one on sacred geometry last night.. Like it was fascinating. But anyway, um, what do you think happens after we transition? What do you what do you think is going on?

Amy : I believe that our consciousness still exists. So that energy and this is, you know, really simple or not, simple physics and quantum physics. Um, but the research now that’s coming out, and I can’t explain it all beyond how my mind can how I can wrap my mind around this. But when I listen to it in the moment, I understand it, but I can’t regurgitate it. The Quantum physics, the quantum entanglement, the, um, like what they’re starting to find around the consciousness of more than just the human brain and the human mind is, is, frankly, mind blowing. And so I think that and we have, you know, it’s so interesting that people still dismiss this because this is not woo. There is research behind this. Bruce Greyson out of University of Virginia. Um, Ian Stevenson like they have done research with people around near-death experiences, past life experiences, I mean, kids, kids who say things and and it’s validated and checked out. It’s like, okay, but No. Well, how do we, why do we choose not to… Why is that not considered real research? Because we can’t replicate it in a, in a, in a setting, in a, you know, in a science scientific setting?  But it’s anecdotal and so many people have similar stories. It’s just amazing to me that we continue to refute it. And it makes me wonder what people are so afraid of?

Alison : Yeah.

Amy : What would it mean to to acknowledge that?

Alison : Exactly.

Jean: That reminds me of Eben Alexander, who was a brain surgeon and had had his near-death experience and said, no, this is there’s so much more going on. But I you know what? I think it is permeating out. I think people are meditating more people are starting to maybe-there is something more? And and I think these kind of conversations really help dis dismiss or kind of soften the the fear that many people have around death. And um, and it’s not you know, it’s so sort of ingrained in our system, in our DNA, you know, how we feel and celebrate or just fear death.

Alison : You know, I have a friend who’s in stage four cancer. And it was interesting because she’s like, you don’t believe how few people want to discuss death.

Amy : Mhm.

Amy : Including doctors.

Alison : Yeah.  It’s all very um, we’re going to get through it this and that and, and so they, they go to this death workshop and people with people and discuss it because we’re all going to go through it like, what is that like from, from a, from a more therapist point of view, is it just a fear or what is that like?

Amy : Yeah, I mean I think it’s an anxiety. I think it’s a fear of the unknown. Um, I find it to be like, is fearing death. It can be so paralyzing because really, what fearing death, I think does, is prevent you from living your life. And when I think about, I hate to talk about Covid, but to to talk about Covid for a minute… What was at the core of that was such an intense fear of death, right? Like every we were washing groceries, because there was like, this is this is what people kind of went to at the time because they were so afraid of dying. And yeah,  I’m afraid, frankly, of not living.

Alison : Right.

Jean: I think that’s so great that you say that because that’s so, so true. Um, I read I don’t know where I read. It could have been A Course in Miracles because we we all talked about A Course In  Miracles when we were being interviewed by you, Amy, but the very heavy identification that we’re bodis like that –So I think it’s like opening up to… No,  I have a body, but I’m actually this eternal presence of love and and everything.

Alison : What do you mean, though? What do you mean, though? Like by saying you’re afraid of not living.

Amy : What do I mean?

Alison : Yea..

Amy : Personally I don’t want to be on my deathbed and look back at my life. And this is what I think death is our greatest teacher… I mean, this is the concept of, “Memento mori” , right? That, um, I want to make sure that the people that I love , knew I loved them, that they felt that every day that anybody who came into my presence,  was cute today– I talk about this a lot on my podcast, like, I’m kind of probably, because I was a server, and I knew what it was like… But we are all equal. I was at the grocery store this morning and I went to get my meat from my meat guy, who I see every Sunday. I’m like religious about. It’s like my church Sunday morning, 8 a.m. I’m at the grocery store and the guy says to the person who’s helping me, he’s like, are you helping my best customer? And I was like, you mean your favorite customer? And he’s like, my favorite customer because it’s about like, I see you, right? I want people who I’m with, who are with me to feel seen by me, to feel loved by me. That is an expression to me of living, of/from my soul.

Amy : I want to travel. I want to see different places, I don’t want to get to… I mean, it could be tomorrow. Look, my aunt died at my age, and I want to know that I want to be off my phone more, which I’m still working on, because if I died tomorrow, that would not be something I would be happy about, is how much I’m on that stupid device. But, um, like that, that I want to have lived– like I want my life to feel every single day – full. And how I express that, i mean, even just this conversation for me, like, I know I will walk away from this feeling like, just like I did when I interviewed you. That was amazing. It was such a deep, beautiful connection. And I carry that with me. And so I want people to look at their own lives and determine what that fullness would feel like to them. Because if they were to die tomorrow, if they and I do have like a contemplative death, sometimes I’m I wake up in the morning, I’m like, oh God, enough with the death.(haha) Like sometimes like the first thing on my mind. And I’m like–oh God, can’t I just like, wake up in the morning, (hahah)  but it does, um, it does shift how I live it.

Amy : It really makes things more, everything feels more vibrant.

Alison : Right.

Jean: That’s so beautiful. Yeah. I love that you say that. And it’s. It’s true. We don’t know when we’re going to leave our bodies. And so everything becomes very precious. And to your point, you can almost go like, oh, my God, I’m. I’m making way too much…. Like, I gotta chill out..you know.  And I love that. Can you tell us what you do in the morning?

Alison : Do you  have practice?

Amy : Oh, gosh. I wish I had, like, a good answer. It depends on the day.

Jean: Okay. That’s that’s a great answer.

Amy : Yeah. It really depends. Like, some mornings I wake up and I’m like, out of bed and at the gym and other. More like today I laid in my bed and I put on my morning meditation, and I do my meditation before I do anything. Um, some days I’ll pull a card or two, I’ll sit in meditation and pull a card. Um, some days I will just get up and make breakfast for my kids. Um, so. Or their lunches or whatever it is. Although my husband’s been doing a lot of that. Thank you very much. So, um, but I think it really, you know, I really try to tune in and ask myself, what is it that you need today? Because I think when we get, like, dogmatic about I have a meditation practice for sure. But I think when we get so dogmatic about, like, it needs to be every day at this time, it starts to feel like a chore rather than am I listening to what I need today? And sometimes I’ll sit down and meditate after my kid. You know, my kids will leave for school and I’ll sit down for 20 minutes. I’ll meditate, and then I’ll get in the shower to get ready for work, but it’s like I try to tune in to like, where is the where am I feeling pulled and what am I feeling pulled for? And sometimes in the middle of my day, I’ll. I’ll hear you. You you best sit down and meditate right now, right. Um, it’s like almost a pushy demand. And I’m like, okay, I’ll just go and like, or I’ll sit here and I see my one of my meditation chairs and I’ll like, feel like it’s like pulling me in. And that’s when I’ll be like, okay, I’ll go and sit for a few minutes.

Amy : Come, come. hahah–We have stuff. We have stuff to say to you.

Alison : Exactly.  Do you hear us?

Alison : Do your kids know about your, um, intuitiveness.

Amy : Yeah. They don’t really give it much thought. I think my daughter, um, my daughter’s friends were way more into it than she was. And so last summer, they were like, come tell us your stories, because I did my first, like, official talk at, um, and I did it on signs and synchronicities and intuition. And a couple of her friends moms were part of like, the community group that organized it. So they came, so suddenly, she was like, mm, this is interesting. And my middle one is probably has, he’s very intuitive. So he probably would connect. He’s very into like or he was when he was younger. He’s 15 now. So he’s this is all not so interesting to him. But he was very into like wanting to know what his past lives were. And um, just super curious about that. And I  do use, I mean, I talk to them about meditation as a way obviously more from the like anxiety, a way to manage anxiety and stress and things like that. And my little one, I call him my tiny Buddha because he just says things. I think all little kids are like tiny Buddhas. He says things sometimes I’m like, are you coming from the quantum space? Who are you? Like last week, he said something to me. He said, mom, when you make a choice, that means that any other choice you could have made is no longer a choice for you? And I was like, wow. Are you like, is this the matrix?

Amy : What’s happening here, Savage? He’s dead, right? …It was just like, so profound. I was like, what? What is going through your little mind that you came up with that? And he he’ll drop some of those truth bombs, like throughout my weeks, and  I think that all kids have that ability and have that accessibility. And one of the things that I talk about sometimes is, I think that our intuition gets kind of hopefully, not actually physically beaten out of us, but unfortunately, sometimes that is the case. But when we’re little and and we have experiences where we are much more able to read people’s emotions and cues because we’re not filtered by our own, um, judgments around what different things mean. And when a child comes to a parent or says something like, you seem sad today, and the parent then says, no, I’m not sad, why would you think I’m sad …in those tiny moments we are squashing intuition.

Amy : Because intuitively they know that that’s.

Jean: Yeah, they sense it

Amy : They sense it. And so then, they put words to it and then we tell them no, and then they think, oh, I must not be right.. There must be something wrong with what I’m sensing. So you start to learn to turn off that, um, monitor within you. And the older you get, the further and further you get away from it. So I don’t think intuition necessarily, you asked me earlier is something you need to learn? I think it’s something you need to find your way back to.

Jean: Right….I think that’s.

Alison : Perfect.

Jean: Wonderful.

Alison : Yeah,

Jean: I think you nailed it right on the head, and I… That was great.

Alison : You know, my mom, my father had a very, very risky job, and I was an only child. And my mom, I could sense the anxiety my mom was going through. And I’d say, are you worried? Are you angry? And she’d say, no, honey, no, because she wanted to protect me. And I understand that. But as I grew up, I even still something will happen and I’ll have to call Jean or my husband or my friends and say, this happened and this is what I feel. What do you think? Like, I don’t trust that I’m picking up. So it’s exactly what you’re saying. So with my kids, my kids would say, are you angry? Are you? And I’d say, you know, I kind of am because I ran around today and I got stuck in traffic. It’s got nothing to do with you.

Alison : or say it’s the car… I felt like screaming. I just tell them, like, you know?

Amy : Right. Because what you’re teaching them is, like, what you are sensing is accurt,e you’re sensing someone else’s energy.

Alison : Right.

Amy : And so you/ we don’t want to shut that down because then, we’re really shutting down like a safety valve for people.

Alison : Yeah. Oh, that’s a great way of putting it.

Jean: Yeah.

Amy : That is so true because it’s important to have that, right?

Alison : And the great thing is, I mean… Some of us that will, you know, if we miss the boat with our own kids, we can pass that on to our children and go, you know what?…. Back in the day, I didn’t want to add any more pressure to you. So I never was… But when you think when you feel something, lean into it a little bit.

Alison : or if You don’t have kids, your friends.

Jean: Yeah. Exactly.

Alison : Like right.

Jean: Or like, this conversation is so helpful, Amy… I think so many people will relate and benefit from this.

Alison : Do you, could you just tell us what you meant when you said about living life backwards?

Amy : Yeah.

Amy : So living life backwards is this kind of concept that I came up with using, obviously from the perspective that we talked about earlier, like using this notion of the end, in mind, as a way to really guide your life, but also thinking about what happens to your soul when you die. So Eben Alexander, you talked about and many near-death experiencers will talk about this concept of a life review. And the life review, they say, is that they experience their life from the perspective of all the different people in their lives. So, and it could be someone that you, you crossed paths with once. It could be someone you were in deep, intimate relationships with, but that you are going to experience what it was like to be in relationship with you.

Alison : Wow.

Amy : So, I mean, just sit with that for a moment and think about. Right? Like when when people talk about heaven and hell, I’m not particularly, I’m not particularly religious in that regard, but I that’s what I think hell would be like if you have not treated people well. And and look, there are people, I’m sure that I have not treated well and things that I’ve done, and I’m not looking forward to that part of my life review. Like, I don’t know that I want to feel what what it felt like in that way. And again, that then informs how I act now because I’m like thinking about that. I’m like, oh, I don’t want that life review to to feel that way.

Jean: Right. So it’s about another choice.  You’ll make a choice not to, uh, put down someone or gossip. You’ll be like, um, you know.. Yeah… You just make another choice.

Amy : Yeah, and I try. I’m far from perfect. And like you were saying earlier, like, with the kids, like, I also know that I’m going to mess up my kids. And I also know that we’re humans, and that’s part of the experience. I don’t even want to say mess up, like there’s going to be hardships for them. And things that I said and did and what I know, having been a therapist for as long as I have, is that whatever the things you think are the things you said and did that your kids going to talk about in therapy, it’s not going to be that. It’s going to be like the little thing that you like, never even remember saying that in some way, hit your kid in a certain way or whatever it was. And it and there’s I mean, it’s just part of the nature of being human. And so I think having been able to see that over time has given me permission to make mistakes, to know that I’m not going to do this perfectly, to know I’m going to say things to my kids that are sometimes going to be hurtful, even if that’s not my intention, and that I can apologize for that, and that it’s not like one thing that you’re going to do that’s going to like set off this, you know, barrage of mental health issues. It’s it’s life, and life is hard. And I think the best thing you can do is teach people to cope with life rather than feel like everything has to be perfect. And I have to say the perfect thing all the time so no one feels any hurt or pain. That’s not realistic.

Alison : Yeah. Yeah.

Jean: There’s that saying that says, you know, if you want to be sad, try to live a perfect life.

Alison : Oh, I love that. Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Alison : Um, you know, just we have two last questions, and one is.

Amy : Oh, that’s it.

Alison : Yeah…it been 40 minutes. We don’t want to… Unless you want to keep going?

Amy : I’m good.  I’ve got till 4:00.  I love you guys.

Alison : So I know, we love you.

Jean: We would love to interview you again.

Alison : Could we do it again?

Amy : Of course.

Alison : I would love that. I want to do this like, every week.

Amy : I would love too, I love it.

Jean: This has been such a beautiful conversation. I’m already glowing just by chatting with you, Amy.

Amy : Oh thank you for that.

Alison : Do you want to do the questions?

Amy : My questions?

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: All right. So, Amy, what does inside wink mean to you?

Amy : Oh, I like this. Um, I feel like to me, it means, like, the little wink you get from the universe. Like you’re on the right path, like we’ve got you here.

Alison : I love that, and that’s what you were saying about like, serendipity, right? And sort of…

Amy : Exactly.

Alison : and like Signs.

Amy : Yeah.

Alison : Which is really what I would love to talk about another time with you, because I think that, I think once you become aware of that, don’t you think that’s life changing?

Amy : Life changing. It is so fun. It’s like…. It’s like a whole nother level of fun in life. When you start engaging in the synchronicities and signs of life, I feel like it just changes everything you, you do and how you are.

Alison : So we gotta, we gotta plan that for the new year. Okay?

Jean: And we’ll leave our audience hungry for more.

Alison : That’s right. Our last one is…Do you like pie, cake or ice cream?

Amy : I love this. I was like, what do I…  Cake! No question.

Alison : What kind?

Amy : Oh, gosh. Okay, so I live in Chicago and Sweet Mandy B’s is this amazing bakery right by my house. And they have a yellow cake with a chocolate frosting. That’s my favorite.

Alison : God, that sounds really good.  It’s the worst question to end on, because then I have to go eat something.

Amy : Yeah….What do you guys. Are you cake? pie or…???

Jean: I am definitely cake.

Alison : I’m cake and ice cream. There’s no like I put ice cream on the cake. I like pie, but cake with ice cream. Oh, man– with that frosting, with the ice cream.

Amy : It’s the frosting on the cake for me.

Alison : The frosting makes it. We had a cake recently, and the frosting wasn’t good. And you went, what’s the point of eating the cake?

Amy : Totally.  Yeah. I mean, and that’s why I love their frosting. It’s it’s delicious. It’s like the best frosting I’ve ever had. And I have a funny frosting story, but that could be for another time.

Alison : Okay, well, we’re going to we’re going to set something up for January with you..

Amy : Okay. Perfect. Amazing.

Alison : That would be great. And we just appreciate you so much. And I’m so enjoying your podcast.

Jean: Yes.

Amy : Thank you. Thank you.  Likewise.

Jean: It’s right up my alley.

Jean: I love all your… You have such wonderful guests and your questions are so…

Alison : you’re really smart.

Amy : Thank you. Thank you.  I’ve just read a lot—- like this whole— i read every book.  And I really try to tailor each… I’m like so purposeful with every question, and I’ve been doing the work of working with people for so long that I feel like I can be in the heads of what the listener might be curious about.

Jean: Yeah,

Alison : and , I think that’s a thing about you that I really enjoyed. You’re curious?

Amy : Mhm. Yeah.

Alison : You really want to know… Like just now, you said well what about you guys. What do you like,  pie, cake or ice cream? And I think we’ve done this many times and I don’t think anyone’s asked us that.  So that really speaks to your your soul.  You know, your your consciousness. So thank you so much.

Amy : Thank you both so much.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

Amy : I want to hug you guys. Mwah.

Jean: Yes. Sending you big hugs.

Amy : Okay. Have a great day.  Stay warm.

Alison : Yeah, right.

Jean: You too.

Amy : Bye.

Alison : All right. Bye.

Jean: She was amazing. I loved her, and I really could have spoken a lot longer.

Alison : Right. And her podcast is really interesting. She has really interesting guests…  She’s right, she’s very focused when she’s doing it.

Jean: And i think that’s good.

Alison :  yeah. Me too.

Jean: Because these are topics that, that need a little bit of focus, because they’re it’s  talking about the esoteric is challenging…okay, so her podcast is called…

Alison : Life, Death and the Space Between….  and It really encompasses a lot — sitting on that line between science and spirituality.

Jean: Yeah, that is so true. I want to share with our listeners that if you go to her website, Doctor Amy Robbins.com.  You can download a workbook that she offers called ,Soul Wisdom, and she has wonderful questions to ponder about– that just kind of get you out of the everyday do do do. It kind of gives some attention to it, not kind of, it does give attention to your soul.

Alison : And what I love is that you feel that she’s very accessible because she’s like, I’m not the best at it.

Jean: She’s so relatable.

Alison : She’s very yeah..

Jean: I don’t do it every day. Some days I do, some days I don’t, but. Right?

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: She was awesome.

Alison : It’s excellent. You know, we were saying how great it is to keep making sort of these connections with people because really, every time we speak to someone or meet someone, I learn a little bit more about them and then myself.

Jean: Right. Yeah.

Alison : You know?

Jean: Same.

Alison : It’s really great.

Jean: Well, we hope you enjoy this this really lovely, wonderful interview.

Alison : And and us, we hope you enjoy us….hahahah….That’s it.

Jean: I enjoy you.

Alison : That’s right.

Jean: I enjoy us.

Alison : That’s right. We do… Have a great day.

Jean: Bye

JEAN : It’s great to see you.

ALISON : It’s great to see you too.

ALISON : We haven’t spoken, well on a podcast, since your We Spark thing…you were honored.

JEAN : I was honored, and that was, that was such a beautiful night. I was so surprised that my daughter Emily got to introduce me, and I thought it was going to be you.

ALISON : I know I was so happy that you thought that. And I was happy that we fooled you. And then you had a lovely video and comics. It was a really fun night.

JEAN : Fun? Yeah. It was.. It was a truly a fun, fun night across the board. It wasn’t all, um, pretentious or anything like that.

ALISON : It wasn’t a lot of speeches, they just had, they wanted to have fun. They raised some money. So I was so happy, i was so proud, Jean. I was so happy you did that.

JEAN : And you did it too.

ALISON : Well, I helped, I just helped with the video, which is…

JEAN : Which was a huge thing.

ALISON : I got to talk to your sister and your friends and everyone. Everyone came through, so it was excellent. And this is our friend today we’re interviewing.

JEAN : This is Cheryl Farrell, and I’ve known Cheryl for quite some time since our boys, our respective kids, went to Campbell Hall together. And I always thought Cheryl was just a very intelligent, super kind and generous woman. So she’s going to talk to us about storytelling.

ALISON : Which is so excellent because I love storytelling. I think, you know, just being an actor and understanding that stories are important. And she is such a good writer.

JEAN : Yeah, she truly is.

ALISON : And she she used to write a lot of articles when inside wink was a website. You know…And and so I’m so happy she’s doing this because I think right now To understand each other’s stories is so important..you know?

JEAN : And to understand what’s going on within someone’s heart and mind. Because most people just walk around and keep a lot to themselves. So it’s lovely to share what’s going on and also glean a sense of compassion or empathy.

ALISON : Yeah, exactly. So let’s listen to Cheryl and you guys are going to love her. So here she is.

Cheryl : Oh my gosh, Hi, Jean. Hi, Alison….my heart’s been pitter patter for…

ALISON : We love you, Cheryl.

Cheryl : I love you more. I, I it just seems so perfect at this time, would be now to talk about stories and how it relates to your work. So…

ALISON : And I think we were just saying that storytelling, I think right now in the climate of everything is so important because it allows us to, for that time, you know, be in someone else’s space and also, um, their shoes and just to kind of see something and see where we connect.

Cheryl : Absolutely. Our stories are what connect us and bind us. And in these highly polarizing times, it’s easy to create a story about someone based on their political affiliation, their race, their gender, their zip code, and we do that as a defense mechanism. I think it’s very primal. You know, back with the dinosaurs. Like, has that dinosaur eaten lately? Right. So I’m going to assume it’s hungry and it’s coming after me, and so that same primal instinct happens when we’re walking down the street and we see someone in a hoodie, or have a bumper sticker that says something that’s not according to our values. Um, that’s the underbelly of stories when we make them up and we don’t know each other. But I’ve always found that in a good crisis, you have a wildfire, have a flood, have some kind of reckoning. All of a sudden it’s one human being talking to another human being. Are you okay? Did you feel that? And I wonder why can’t just on a sunny, sunny Wednesday afternoon, we have that care for one for one another to find their stories. And we can still disagree on things, but we can disagree without doing harm.

JEAN : I think that’s the key…you know, we can disagree…Um, and and yet not feel like we’re separate from them. You know?

Cheryl : Not Villainize the other person.

JEAN : Villainize… right.

Cheryl : You know, not make them the enemy. Because there’s only, you know, basic needs shelter, food, compassion, love. We’re all, as human beings wanting those things… So storytelling unearths those, those needs. And that’s where we can find the connection.

ALISON : Do you, can you describe to our listeners what you do, like in terms of storytelling? Because I think what you do is so interesting, and I want everyone to kind of understand where you’re coming from.

Cheryl : Thank you for asking. I’ll start with where I’ve been and how it all came together as storytelling. I spent about 25 years in corporate America in sales communications for financial institutions, health care institutions. And then for a variety of reasons, the recession and things like that, i moved into, um, a storytelling space, a storytelling performer. So I’ll talk about some of those salons and things like that. So as a storytelling, um, performer, I found I can match the principles of storytelling and the needs of businesses and employees that need to collaborate better, have better communication. So in 2019, I created a consultancy called, Pop Up Storytelling for organizations. And it sounds like it’s telling the stories of business, but it’s telling the stories of the people who work in those businesses. And so you can find someone that’s sharing a cubicle for five years, and by accident or through facilitation, they learn that one of them was adopted and then another is a an adoptive mother. I was actually in a in a workshop once, and I posed a secret question that I can’t share here, but it’s a question I posed that generates a response.

Cheryl : And these two ladies that worked with each other answered the question, and they looked at each other. I didn’t know you were adopted. I didn’t know you were an adoptive mother. And they started chatting with each other…but they shared the same space for years? And so what I do in these corporate environments, in a safe space, is it’s not just willy nilly talking your business, but in a safe space, bring out those attributes, those experiences that others may be able to relate to. And so you’re not necessarily going to camp out at lunch with other adoptees, but you will recognize that person’s name on your email. That person, you know, you know, some of these people get hundreds of emails in a day, and they have to discern which ones they’re going to reply to. So they’ll reply to their boss, they’ll reply to the CEO, and they’ll reply to people they know, people they feel they have some kind of kinship with. And so to the extent that we can know each other’s stories without feeling exposed or violated, there is a likelihood of greater collaboration in the workplace.

ALISON : That’s amazing.

JEAN : Yeah, I never would have thought of storytelling in a business workplace as a good tool to bring coherency to my business, you know?

Cheryl : It’s a coaching method that, um, I think it’s pretty unique. I haven’t seen anyone else do it quite this way. There’s certainly industrial psychologists and therapists, but I’ve trademarked pop up storytelling, and I typically in these presentations, I’ll have my script, I’ll talk about the science of storytelling and all that. But there’s this unscripted part that never fails. I look forward to it. I can’t wait to that part, this question. And on zoom calls or in person, you’ll see people doing a double take… Me too.. That happened to me too. I can relate to that. I’ve presented in universities and law firms and, um, sororities, all types of organizations, nonprofits, for profits. Wherever there are people, there are stories.

ALISON : And do you find that it’s challenging for people to be vulnerable in those settings?

Cheryl : Absolutely.

ALISON : And how do you how do you work with that?

Cheryl : Well, there’s two layers of resistance. One is from the leaders because they have the mystique of being all…. And if you pull the, you know, the curtain behind their story, their facade, they may not want their subordinates to know that they’re human too, right? So that first line of resistance is finding leaders who are, I guess, desperate enough that they’ll try anything. I turnover there’s dysfunction among groups. Um, and if I can present it in the right way, they’ll at least give me a chance. So I get in that door. Then there’s this other door of resistance by the employees themselves, particularly women. People of color are conditioned to stay buttoned up, closed up. Don’t let anybody know the real you, because it will be exploited. But what I try to do is set up a what I call the rules of engagement safe practices, so that you can feel comfortable that what you share will be respected, will not be abused. Um, and, you know, there are nefarious characters everywhere. There are people that will take something and do something bad with it. Right. These days, the stakes are too high not to take that risk..We Take all the precautions we can to make sure that people are treating each other with compassion. But because the to not do so, is to perpetuate these divisive, um, cultures that are going on. It’s going on with our neighbors. It’s going on in our churches and our houses of faith. Um, these polarizing times are affecting everything from our personal lives to our professional lives. And it’s it’s worth taking the risk. The other the other area of pushback I get is from the introverts. And I know there’s a bunch of them listening in today.

ALISON : Yes that’s right.

Cheryl : The statistics show there are far more introverts than there are extroverts. You know, we’re in this society that rewards outgoing behavior, but most of us are quiet little folk that want long walks on the beach. They want… we want to be still and they’re in the workplace, right? So what I tell people is that I’ve taken Myers-Briggs and I have found that I’m an ambivert. I’m equally extrovert, equally introvert, so I can sing in front of 2 million people, and I can go on a cruise alone and be perfectly fine.  i’ve come to understand what gives me energy. What takes my energy away, and I regulate my activities so that I don’t get tapped out or overexposed. And so with storytelling, I say take it in doses. Do the part that appeals to your inner nature. So maybe you’re not telling your story in front of 500 people at the town hall. Maybe you’re finding a trusted friend who is willing to be vulnerable with you. Mhm. There’s also a book by Susan Cain. It was written in 2012 and I wanted to make sure I had her title correct here. Um, it’s called,”Quiet –  The Power of Introverts in a world that Can’t Stop talking”.  And she talks about how there are far more introverts, leaders of major companies, and the way they overcome their tendency to be inward is that they know they’re the master of their product. There’s no one else who can tell their product the way they do, so they have to figure out some kind of way to get up there and tell that story, because it’s that important.

ALISON : So that’s very interesting to me. And you’re right, like, I would not think— I would think, like what you said about the leaders, kind of takes me aback, because I would think the leaders would want their story to be out there. But what you say is they don’t want maybe people to think they’re human.

Cheryl : Well, or they don’t want to be the ones to tell it.  They have a story,  and I don’t want to drop any, high tech names without having done my research… But there’s, there’s a noted high tech inventor who is extremely introverted and he just found a way to get up in front of these huge investor audiences and talk about his product, and then maybe go retreat afterwards, like, you know, like when I perform or something, i’ll just say that the doors are closed. I’m out of here.

ALISON : That’s right. Close the bedroom door.

Cheryl : That’s it.  I’m having a nice conversation in a closet with me, myself and I, and we come out refreshed.  So when you talk about yourself in the plural, I guess that’s a problem. hahah– But anyway,  I figured out a way to retain my energy. You know, one of the essays I wrote for Insidewink, was about this desire to be a performer. I’d always imagined I wanted to be a on Broadway and all the glamour with that, and I’ve had touches of it a little bit, but not as a profession, but the older I get, the more I realize, I don’t know if I could be up on a stage every night doing the same thing.  For extroverts, that’s where they get their energy…I can’t wait to get on that stage,  but folks like me, is like you know, can we record it?…and y’all see…hahah

JEAN : You know Cheryl I think we change, you know, and at certain times in our lives, we need to be out there more. And then those of us that have been out there when we were younger maybe withdraw less and as we get older and vice versa.

Cheryl : I agree. No, we are shifting. Um, I know it was important to please and entertain when I was younger, so a lot of that outgoing stuff wasn’t by nature is just…I wanted to be liked. Now, I’m like, well, you know, it’s okay if I’m…. I’ll be fine, right?

JEAN : That’s right. My value does not always…. It’s not on so much of the outside anymore.

Cheryl : Exactly. One less Christmas card to send.

ALISON : That is right. That’s the beauty of getting a little older.

Cheryl : Yeah, yeah. I’m comfortable. If I don’t want to do this, I won’t do it.

ALISON : That’s right.

Cheryl : And I grieve about whether someone, you know what someone thinks of me. But all of those are parts of our story. All of our experiences as a young adult weave into our story for what we are today. And when I first meet you, you don’t have that ability to know those experiences that shaped me. There’s no sandwich board sign that says, oh, she was raised in, you know, Central or South Los Angeles, right? Or she she suffered infertility or Oh, she, you know, she had a premature birth. And I don’t necessarily want to be a poster child for everything that’s happened to a person. But those things have shaped me. And there are other people that can relate to that. Their experiences may not have the same details, but those underlying themes of courage or fear or uncertainty or hope are things that we can connect on… So a normal questionnaire– tell me about yourself?,  doesn’t bring up that type of information. But in sharing a story we do find those areas that we are more alike than unalike.

ALISON : Yeah. I thought it’s interesting that last night during the vice presidential debate. When Waltz said that his son had been, had seen or witnessed something with a gun, and and Vance was like, I did not know that. And it was a moment where it was two dads.

Cheryl : Yes. That’s it. You know, you hit the nail on the head.

JEAN : they found their common ground.

ALISON : And he looked at him and he was like, oh, I’m so, I’m so knowing, you know. And I realized, wow, these are two dads now.

Cheryl : Yes, that’s exactly the point. Perfect example.

ALISON : When you go into businesses, uh, that’s one thing, right? You’ve been hired. You’re doing it. What do you do for someone that’s, like, not in a business? How would I, who doesn’t work in a corporate world, begin to feel comfortable, more comfortable with my neighbors or with my friends. How can I open up like that?

Cheryl : Great question. Um, I think the first step is learning your own story. We think we know our story, but it’s through this guiding process that we understand, uh, in a story, there’s an arc, the the starting part, the background, the context. Next part of the arc is tension or conflict or challenge. Something happened and then there’s resolution. It’s an age old dynamic that works in literature and movies, and it can work for individuals in their storytelling. Now, the resolution doesn’t mean happily ever after that you’ll never have this problem again.  Good chance you’re going to cycle through that arc, over and over and over again, but maybe you’ll cycle through it a little quicker each time, because you’re going through something right now, and you remember, oh, it does abate. And it isn’t that, time heals all wounds, it’s just, in it’s time, you find resolution to that conflict. So there are these stories. So first is knowing your your story. Then it’s having the courage to share it because it’s great if you know your story, but it’s another thing to be willing to share it and to invite others to share theirs. So if there is a neighborhood homeowners association and there’s some conflict about, should we have this color on our roof versus that kind of, you know, there’s an opportunity for that group to find some cohesion in sharing their stories. And it may not make sense that we’re talking about paint colors. And then you’re bringing up this idea that you, you know, you had a particular situation as a kid, but given the right setup, there are ways that your neighbors, the people in your faith organization or any other group can come together and have this type of conversation. I’m also available, and therapists and others. I’m not a therapist, but others can do one on one coaching… Develop that and you then can go out and talk to others.

JEAN : How important do you feel Cheryl, um you know, listening to the stories of our ancestors.

Cheryl : Oh that just gave me chills. Yes. It is so vital because it fills that void where we’ve made up a story about ourselves. When you don’t have a connection to your past, you’ve got this arrogance of thinking you invented yourself. You came out of the womb with some hardware, some hard wiring… Some things that have shaped you. They talk about ancestral trauma, that you don’t know why you feel this way, but there’s just some stuff inside you that it’s part of your DNA.  um, you know, I was listening to one of your, uh, episodes, and, uh, Alison, you, I think, was in the introduction. You brought up this idea of how your grandmother’s skin made you feel. There was something about that, I believe.  You turned to Jean and said, have you ever felt that. And Jean was so sweet. No, I think I remember a neck exactly. But I do remember there was another story about, I guess, your grandparents or your parents. So. So there was this connection about something that happened in, you know, prior generation. Then Alison said, and it was an aside that just caught me. She says, you know, I never met my paternal grandmother because my father was left on a doorstep…..and y’all just kept talking. I’m like, ooh, did I miss that episode? …Cause there’s a story there, and people listening were wanting to know… I too feel that disconnect from my past, my my ancestors. And let’s talk about that, because it’s really not so much the circumstances for not knowing, but how does that make you feel? Yeah. And and what are you passing on to your kids? How do we fill that void for our kids, knowing where they came from? All of those are stories. So there’s there’s, you know, I say I got a million stories, but I have a lot. There’s just about everything that I’ve gone through has connection to this story arc. There was some place I, you know, I was in a certain place…. There was some kind of issue. And then this is how it resolved.

ALISON : I like that you’re using stories for forward motion. That you’re not sitting in the story sinking or, uh, either being a victim of it or being raised up by it, like that you’re looking to it for some sort of forward direction. Do you know what I mean?

Cheryl : I absolutely know what you mean. Right, it is not a pity party. not this willy nilly purging of your diary. it’s providing context for hope…  and that’s why I love your message about sharing the good. Because that’s what hope is all about, right? We’re sharing it because I can feel optimistic about today and tomorrow, even though the immediate circumstances are distressing. Yeah.

JEAN : I mean it reminds me of, of that quote you know– “share your story. But you don’t have to keep reliving it.” You know.. You’ve  had trauma or, or loss …..and speaking about loss, can you share how storytelling helps heal,   people going through significant loss?

Cheryl : Yes. You know, we grieve over any number of things. People, loved ones who’ve passed on, a pet, a lost opportunity, a feeling of abandonment and loss, uh, can be assigned to anything, right? And if you’re alone in your cocoon wallowing in your situation, you are missing the opportunity of hearing how others have gotten went through. It, came out of it. It isn’t necessarily, I talk about what it is, but I want to be clear, it isn’t necessarily, uh, if I can do it, you can do it too. That’s not what the story telling sharing is about. It’s knowing you’re not alone.  This is not unique to you, and the losses that others have felt is the same feeling burden sometimes that you’re going through, and so that healing for me means that I’m not doing this alone. Sometimes sharing my story during grief. Someone will just say I hear you. I acknowledge you. They’re not giving you advice. They’re not telling you what they would do. They’re just being present and saying I see you. And that fills the void that I’m seeing, and I’m heard and validated in this. Right. And um now, sometimes grieving can be pretty severe. So so storytelling is not a magic wand that says, oh share your story and you too will…. That’s not what this is about, right? Uh, sometimes there are therapists that include storytelling in their processes. Um, sometimes, you know, we need medication. We need certain things to get us through our grief. But storytelling is a tool, a something to consider if, um, you’re looking for a way through it.

ALISON : Um, when you said when my my father died very unexpectedly, when I had just turned 22, and everybody else I knew at that time had their dads and except my friend Sue Myers. And, um, when I spoke to Sue, I was in complete shock and feeling very victimized, like, very lonely. And Sue said just simply, I promise it’s going to get better.

Cheryl : Yes.

ALISON : And that was so powerful in that moment that my peer had experienced something similar. And exactly what you said you don’t… I did not feel so alone, and I think now I think we’re so challenged with people actually feeling lonely.

Cheryl : Yes. Oh my word. You know, the pandemic exacerbated the segmenting, that’s anyway, but thankfully, I just I don’t know if it’s human nature or just a higher power, uh, platforms like zoom, you know,  conferencing, like video conferencing was really kind of an afterthought in the business environment. If you weren’t in the office, you weren’t really important right now. Uh, this has been this has connected us in ways that we never could have imagined. And that’s that’s what gives me hope that no matter how dire our situation is, there is hope.  I have found the storytelling sessions i provide work just as well over zoom as it does in person. Now, this definitely something about feeling, touching and hugging people, but the essence of storytelling works as long as there are people on the screen and engaged. We have our little breakout groups. Sometimes the groups are pretty large and the breakout groups will come back sharing. Oh, this is what we heard and this is what we felt. I said, well, there it is. It works.

JEAN : Yeah, it’s it’s also really, um, life expanding just to be interested in someone else’s story rather than your own.

ALISON : Exactly.

JEAN : It’s like. Huh?

Cheryl : It’s like, imagine that. You know, and at a very crass level, sometimes hearing other people’s story can be a lovely distraction from your own.

JEAN : Well said. That is nothing wrong with that, right?

Cheryl : And it’s not to compare someone else’s situation to yours. But if you can be helpful to someone else, you look up, and a half a day has gone by and you haven’t thought about your situation.

JEAN : That’s huge. You know, that’s not to deny what you’re going through, but thank God we have that opportunity to shift our focus on something other.

ALISON : And you always feel better when you’re helping or listening.

Cheryl : Absolutely. Always…

Cheryl : ..And even if it isn’t intuitive for you, put up a post-it note and say I’m going to help somebody today.  I’m going to ask someone how they’re doing?

ALISON : I have very close relatives in um North Carolina right now, in Asheville. And uh, we were, they were able to text today and I was just talking to two of my nieces and I said, I’m gosh, I wish I was there. I wish I could help. And they were like, me too. And they showed me pictures. I can’t believe what it looks like, where their business, everything… And, um, and then one niece said, but I have to tell you, the interaction with everyone has been lovely and beautiful.

Cheryl : That’s a story that has come out of every hurricane, every flood, every fire.   Are you okay?  do you need some help?

ALISON : And that’s sort of the magic of being a human.

Cheryl : It’s the essence of being human. I’m going to share this story, but I’m hoping whoever is listening won’t be put out by, uh. Jean, you know, you knew I lived in Glendale, right? Beautiful tree lined neighborhood styles, Mediterranean home. And, um, I was foolish enough to think, well, if I can afford the mortgage, I can live here. Well, we were one of, you know, we were the only black people in the area, right? So, uh, but I’m.. I don’t know, I’m just kind of naive and hopeful. So about three weeks after we moved in, our neighbor had a flag hanging from his balcony, and it was a swastika flag that could only be seen, you know, in our backyard. At the time my son was about 5 or 6 years old. And, uh, being the conscientious mom, I said, if this man ever talks to you, you run for the hills. You scream and shout, don’t talk. That’s it.  So the Northridge earthquake happens three weeks later, and the first person to knock on our door was that neighbor. How are you guys doing in here? Do you need any help? Is there something I can do?  and my sweet, adorable kid pokes his head around the corner and said, “see, mom, he’s not so bad after all,”  I had to palm his little face and say, kids say the darndest things.  One of the first times I realized, I created a story for him. Why should there be a crisis? Why should there be trauma that we make those connections. But it’s human nature, it’s where we go. But I’m trying to intercept that as much as possible. I’m trying to get ahead of it, because we all, like I said, are human with this, these same needs.

ALISON : What do you think makes a good leader?

Cheryl : A person who is who dares to be vulnerable.. A person who dares to be vulnerable. Because real leaders are the ones that say, you may know more than I do on a particular area and it doesn’t diminish me. You win, I win. So they’re not ashamed to say that they don’t know everything.  Got another story, wrote a, I was a contract employee at a hospital where there was a CEO who would, um, go jogging every morning, and he was relatively new to the hospital, and he would come in with wet hair, and no one really knew exactly what was going on. This high powered guy would come in with, you know, wet hair from from, uh, jogging. And so I would write a weekly newsletter about, you know, what was going on in the executive suite, C suite. And there was one time I wrote a paragraph about, um, he jogs, he shared that he jogs because his son was maybe in his 30s at the time, died premature from a heart condition. And so he was jogging in memory of his son for good heart health. That’s not a sign of a of a typical leader that you would see.

Cheryl : And as you gave in your example before, now we don’t see, Mr. CEO. We see a dad, a dad who is paying honor to his son in the best way he can. He has policies in his hospital that support good heart health, not just because it’s good for business, but it’s, you know, it’s it’s a topic close to home. So  I can kind of sniff out a good leader. Um, and again, vulnerable doesn’t mean you’re just telling all your business and, you know, oversharing.. But it is someone you can tell that’s a human being, that’s a father, that’s an uncle, that’s a that’s an aunt. That’s a, you know, leaders are women too, that, um, that dares to be human and dares to see their employees as human. Not just widgets, not just, uh, full time equivalents. That’s a term they use in HR to talk about how many employees they have. They’re human beings who have, uh, you know, ailing parents, and they have children, and they have financial needs. They’re humans just like you. Yeah.

JEAN : I love that you put some, uh, meaning towards what vulnerability is, because I think a lot of people might think it’s just a, you know, no backbone, no boundaries, and of just going around bleeding heart. And it’s not that.. It’s not failing to embrace humanity. And humanity is is messy and it’s uncomfortable….  pockets of it are gorgeous and beautiful. And then there are sad and very trying times.

Cheryl : And we need them… That characteristic in our political leaders, in our business leaders.  yet I keep bringing up church leaders.  you know, there’s some  interesting things that go on sometimes in these houses of faith. You think oh we’re all getting along. Because people are different and if they don’t dare to be vulnerable we create these, you know these walls we put up and we don’t get at the real the real person.

JEAN : We also assume a lot. I think the human nature likes to assume- if you if no one is going to share, the mind is going to start assuming.

Cheryl : Yes, And again, I think it’s out of that primal need to know if this is friend or foe. Yeah. Fight or flight. So until I’ve had a chance to get to know you and we can’t get to know everybody intimately, I’ll just make up a story so that I can decide what my behavior is. I can decide if I’m going to return that phone call. I’m going to decide if I’m going to collaborate with that person. And, um, you know, women of color, uh, have stories written about them before they even walk in the door,  ou know, I’ve spent my entire career in, in some pretty important levels of the organization. And I early on was playing small because I didn’t want to reinforce any kind of stereotypes or stories that they would have about me. And, um, I just don’t want to hide my light under a bushel anymore. I don’t want to do that. Uh, so I’m not here to, um, you know, make anyone uncomfortable, but I will assert myself if that’s what’s needed. And hopefully people will hear the, merit of the message and not tie it with any kind of stereotypes about the person.

ALISON : Yeah, I think that’s so. I think the world is a better place because of that, Cheryl.

Cheryl : I think so. And I want us to get there, like I said before, the, you know, the sky is falling and there is hope for tomorrow. I feel I want to make sure that I underscore this. There is nothing but hope. We just have to work a little hard to show it. And I think that’s why I love your your platform, both the newsletter as well as the podcast. Because Sharing the good is there’s nothing better. Yeah. That’s the essence of storytelling. I mean, story may have some parts in it that are are uncomfortable, like I said, but we’re sharing for the purpose of good and hope.

ALISON : You know, after all these interviews that we have done, we always come back to the fact that they’re all pretty much the same. You know, it’s about compassion and kindness and respect…and  looking at someone else and saying, oh, I see you, do you know, and  I’m amazed that it could be anything from you and storytelling to people talking about how to maneuver through the medical world with cancer or giving lasagnas to, like, taking care of animals like you. Go, man, it all boils down to the same things.

Cheryl : Isn’t that exciting? To know that we are all connected… Through food, through medicine, through stories–  just being willing to talk to one another.

Cheryl : It’s being willing to talk to one another. Um, you know, one last little tidbit. When I was traveling, uh, internationally, I would always pick up a newspaper that had an English version, no matter what country I went to. There were articles about education, health, religious freedom, political freedom, you know, and and some of these were socialist countries. Some of them, it didn’t matter. But there are human beings caring about their family, caring about the environment. I said, look at this. So travel, I think, is one of the best means of education because you stop using that phrase. Those people over there–,  because they are us.

ALISON : And even traveling around this country now.

Cheryl : Yes. Oh, yes.

ALISON : Because I think people I think people on the coast tell stories about people not on the coast and vice versa.

Cheryl : Exactly. I mean, we we’ve been relegated to two colors. Are you a blue state or are you a red state?  to assign a whole state by define it by a color. Yeah. But at the end of the day, it’s everyone’s looking to find those things that fulfill them, that give them joy, that give them hope. They want the best. No one comes out thinking, I want the worst for people. They don’t. People won’t do that…. People want the best.

JEAN : Isn’t that true? That is it… And as you said before, hope– you know that vibration of hope is huge.

Cheryl : It will sustain you  over oxygen and water. If you think about people that are trapped in those mines. So yeah, they have no, you know, no nutrients or anything like that. It keeps what keeps them going is the hope that they’ll get out, and you hear about people in hospitals that you can give them all the medicine and all this, but if that inner spirit isn’t feeling like there’s a possibility I can get through this, it doesn’t matter…

JEAN : Yeah. Then you’re really in trouble.

Cheryl : Yes. You lose that spirit. So, you know, i’m grateful for chaplains and all those folk that go into hospitals and just say, you know, I see you. YSometimes they’re sharing their story.

ALISON : This beautiful Cheryl, it’s time for our two questions.

Cheryl : Okay.

ALISON : Are you ready?

Cheryl : I am ready. I hope I don’t sound overly rehearsed. I know what I’m going to say…haha

ALISON : What do you think insidwink means?

Cheryl : Inside wink happens to be a term for something I was already feeling. And some people call it intuition or, um, serendipity or, uh, luck. But there’s often in my life these moments that give a nod to- it’s going to be okay. Mhm. Right. So maybe, you know, it’s an email that comes out of nowhere or a or something flashes across the TV. You go oh look at that. And it’s inside because I’m recognizing it, I’m finding myself. Did you see that. Did you hear that. And they go, “no” I didn’t I didn’t really pick up on that. It’s my wink to this hope and optimism. I don’t think I can, I don’t I can beat hope into the ground. I just think that’s that’s what’s important. So anyway, that’s it’s an inside feeling and your terminology reinforces that.

ALISON : That’s beautiful Cheryl.

JEAN : Yeah.

Cheryl : Thank you.

ALISON : Thank you. That is really beautiful.

JEAN : It is.

ALISON : And probably the most important question we’ve ever asked.

Cheryl : Yes…

JEAN : Do you like cake, pie or ice cream?

ALISON : That’s right, that’s right.

Cheryl : Thank you. One of the most profound questions ever… And I have a story for every answer… Definitely a pie girl. Oh, because my mom, who is 93 now, was an aerospace engineer. She was one of those hidden figure types back in the day. Right.

JEAN : Wow.

Cheryl : A major, who used her skills to send rockets into space and jets, you know, into war. Um, she was a single mom for a good while, and I was maybe 5 or 6, and she would pack me up and very independent for that, you know, for that era. And we would go to her favorite restaurant and it was, um, carnations on Wilshire. I don’t know if you remember that. It was Carnat..ions on Wilshire near Crenshaw and.

JEAN : Like, white and red.

Cheryl : Yes,  they’re known for their ice cream but they had a restaurant.  And she would, and she’s educated, get this, but she’s from the South, and she would always order apple pie a la mode.  apple pie a la mode. And every time I have apple pie with a scoop of ice cream, I think of this courageous woman who made a way for herself long before there was a model for it. And so I like the pie. Not so much for its flavor and texture, but the memories that come from it. And, um, I have to watch it for cholesterol reasons now. But I can enjoy the memory, so. But thank you for asking.

ALISON : That is so beautiful.

JEAN : Very lovely.

ALISON : And your mom, wow.

JEAN : I know that’s another talk.

JEAN : Because I love that movie, Hidden Figures… And, um, kudos to your mom. And thank you to your mom for raising such a wise, beautiful woman.

ALISON : You’re just such a bright light. And we love.

Cheryl :  You are the lights. our lights connected…. Our lights are connected by two days apart. We have September birthdays. I think it’s the eighth, 10th and the 12th.

ALISON : Yep.

JEAN : Yeah, a bunch of Virgos.

Cheryl : We have a Virgo fest And I love being around those other bright lights in the solar system

ALISON : Thank you so much.

Cheryl : Yeah. Thank you for inviting me. I’m so honored. I’m among some very distinguished people you’ve interviewed, and I just hope that my little message is worthy.

ALISON : You’re right up there, Cheryl. We love you. We appreciate you. Thank you. And keep, keep doing, keep doing what you’re doing.

JEAN : Keep shining your light.

Cheryl : And you as well. Thank you so much.

ALISON : Have a beautiful day.

Cheryl : Alright. Take care. Bye bye.

JEAN : Take Two. hahah

ALISON : Take two. We recorded the best things about Cheryl and now we’re trying it again to reiterate them.

JEAN :  And it’s my pleasure, because I love talking about Cheryl and how big her heart is, how truly intelligence she is. But she does have that heart of embracing people. And so this is such a great platform for her.

ALISON : And what were you just saying after we stopped that? You’ve known her so long and…

JEAN : Yeah, for over 25 years, and certainly at the time when both of our respective children were younger and they would play together. And I just always was attracted to her vibrancy and her intelligence and always championing goodness. And and here we are, right. Coming full circle.

ALISON : And she’s very funny and very smart. And I love her business model because it’s not just like, you know, here are the rules to be in an office, you’re really playing upon people’s commonalities and opening people up. And what she said is so right– that way, you know them, you get an email from them and you’re like, oh, this is this is Bob, and he and I are similar in this way. And you begin to build real relationships then.

JEAN : Right. And and I do think businesses are understanding the importance of that. I don’t think that was so important back. Yeah. You know, like my dad was in the insurance business. It was very hierarchy. And and now as, as Cheryl spoke about leadership and vulnerability.  These are qualities that are emerging from these companies. And how great is that?

ALISON : Yeah. And I, I urge you to read Cheryl’s stories on Insidewink.com. Just, you know, go to the search bar and look up Cheryl Farrell because her stories are beautiful and very meaningful, and they’re short reads and they they give you different glimpses into her life and into things that, you know, like she talks about being one of the clue masters on jeopardy! She was, you know, and it’s such an interesting story because I didn’t even think about that watching all those years of jeopardy! You know, she’s really great. Cheryl, thank you so much. And thank you for what you’re doing.

JEAN : Yeah… You are quite the bright light… We love you.

ALISON : And thank you for and thank you for listening. And we hope you found hope you found it interesting and and keep telling your stories…right? Go tell someone right now a story.

JEAN : Beautiful.

ALISON : Have a great day.

JEAN : Bye.

JEAN: What are you doing?

ALISON: I’m starting right now. Hello.

JEAN: That is so you —okay?

ALISON: Why is that so ME?

JEAN: I get it, I get it.

ALISON: Why is that so me?

JEAN: you love to get the bloopers.

ALISON: I love the bloopers, and I love just doing it. I just love doing it. Okay. All right.

JEAN: I love just doing it with you. I mean, doing this interview with you because I’m so enamored by this woman – Chaz Ebert, who wrote this phenomenal book called, It’s Time to Give a FECK.

ALISON: That’s right.

JEAN: And FECK is f e c k. It’s an acronym for forgiveness, empathy, compassion and kindness.

ALISON: And, uh, you know, Roger Ebert is similar  to Alex in a way…

JEAN: I thought the same thing.

ALISON: Like iconic, someone we all knew. Our parents knew- we would watch Siskel and Ebert all the time, you know, reading his reviews in the Chicago paper and it just and then, um, you know, now he transitioned, he’s he’s in another realm and Alex is another realm. And you and Chaz are these women that are taking their husbands sort of work and their reputation and working with that and, and helping other people. I found it very moving because it reminded me of, of, of a situation like with you.

JEAN: I felt the same way. Alison, I really related to Chaz on so many levels. So I’m really looking forward to this interview.

ALISON: And she’s good friends with Marlene McGirt, who we did the interview  with We Spark. That’s how we know about Chaz and this book. And the book is fantastic. It’s a nice, easy read. And it’s, it’s it’s keeps you engaged because it’s very current. Current events is what she talks about and she talks about how to really rethink what’s going on in the world to allow forgiveness, empathy, compassion and kindness.

JEAN: Right. And it’s using those beautiful qualities of love to have a greater unification with everyone around us.

ALISON: That’s right, that’s right. So I can’t wait to hear what she has to say, right?

JEAN: Yes. Me too.

ALISON: Okay, here we go.

CHAZ: Yes. So Hi… I’m, Chaz, and you’re Jean and Alison, right?

JEAN: I’m Jean,

ALISON:  and I’m Alison….Hello.

JEAN: Oh, this is so great to meet with you via zoom. And, um, your book is so very, very special.

ALISON: It’s beautiful.

CHAZ: Hold on…Let me just tell him, I think somebody is going in and out of the door. I have to tell them. Don’t do that because it’s going to…

JEAN: Okay.

CHAZ: All right. Let me just. Yeah. One moment.

CHAZ: Okay. I think that that should be good now.,

ALISON: It’s so wonderful to meet you. And Marlene McGirt is one of our great friends and speaks so highly…. And you guys just went to the convention?

CHAZ: We did, we did. We were there… I was there all four nights, but she flew in one day for the…actually she was, she flew in actually, because I was giving a talk about my book at the University Club, and she happened to be here, and I was really glad to take her to the convention. So yeah.

ALISON: It’s so exciting, and while we were reading your book, I could not, you know, your husband has been, you know, so iconic and so loved by my family and so many people. And I just couldn’t help but see how it resonates with Jean’s experience.

CHAZ: And when Marlene told me that she had been on your show and I said, you know, I just felt like a there’s like a definitely a kinship there. Yeah.

JEAN: 100%. And when I was watching the movie of Roger’s life, I have, been I have been saturated with you and your family the past two weeks. I know more about you, which has been so phenomenally inspiring to me. But, um, so many things, Chaz… Like Roger was 50 when when he married you. Alex was 50 when he married me.

CHAZ: Wow.

JEAN: Yeah, they both love movies. And I have to tell you, Alex would love watching your husband and, you know, his show, his movie critic show. So we would sit together.

CHAZ: And we loved watching your husband show because we both loved words and knowledge and everything. So it was okay,– so we have even more in common than we even thought.

ALISON: Right. That’s right.

JEAN: Yeah.

CHAZ: Well, andthe thing about you both, I love that you have this mission for bringing more positivity into the world because we needed more than ever.

ALISON: Yes we do.

JEAN: Yes we do.

ALISON: And that’s why your book… When Marlene told me, the title has got me.. Right there… your title got me.

CHAZ: Although I know that people think the title is to be in your face, but it’s not because it’s just an acronym, right, for those qualities. And and it does make you snap to attention a little bit, I guess so.

JEAN: Right. Yeah. It does. It does call your attention because you wait… Oh, this is a four letter word, but it’s not THE one that my brain thinks right away, it’s as you say, it’s a four letter word for love. And, um, so can we start off and just tell our listeners what inspired you to write this book?

CHAZ: So I started writing the book, I think, around the time of the pandemic. Actually, the idea for the book was before that time. Um, and really the book I started to write was not, “It’s time to give a fECK.” It was more something about, um, some of the emerging writers and film critics and artists and technologists that I was mentoring, because I started this program…. Uh, we call them, I think you know, Ebert scholars, Ebert interns, and, uh, actually, Robert Redford, the year after Roger passed away, and Roger passed away April 4th, 2013, and in January of 20, 2014 at the Sundance Film Festival, Robert Redford told me that he’d like to start, um, a sort of an internship program in Roger’s name at Sundance, and he asked for permission to do it. And of course, I gave him the permission. But before then, I was taking some other upcoming film critics to Sundance and other film festivals around the more more so film critics like women and African Americans and Hispanic Americans who didn’t get a chance to go to some of these film festivals. And so Robert Redford noticed. He said, why don’t we call this, you know, Ebert’s? We call them Ebert Scholars. I forget the first name of the program. And as I was writing these things, I wanted to actually write about those people. And and so there in the back of the book.

CHAZ: But then the pandemic set in and I started noticing that people were… Anxiety was increasing, people were getting more isolated. People said that they felt that they didn’t have a connection to other people. And I started knitting together stories of of where people were good. Because what the thing that Roger and I really, the thing that really brought us together, we both loved goodness in people. And we said that when we watch movies, things that make us happy or sad were not things that were bad. But when people were good, that really touched our hearts and we both felt the same about that. So during the pandemic, I started changing what I was writing about in this book. And it, I started coming out with more things about examples of compassion and kindness and and empathy. You know, the empathy is, Roger said, movies are a machine that generates empathy. Yeah. And let you put yourself in the shoes of another. So, um, it’s just, you know, it sounds like a long answer. And it is because, to tell you the truth, sometimes I don’t know why I wrote the book. And so it just seems like I started writing. I was writing another book, and then something took over. And so I ended up writing this book.

ALISON: So I love that though, because it means that you there was a muse or an inspiration or an angel that was sort of tapping you, saying, hey, what about turning this way?

CHAZ: Yes Alison, that is the truth. Because when I was first writing the book, I said, who wants to read a book about goody two-shoes? W,ho wants to read something where people are telling them you must be kind or you must be this? I didn’t want to make it seem like I was preaching or doing anything to to people. And, uh, but then the stories here are certainly, you know, there are some really, really difficult stories in here too. So I sit there, you know, what’s wrong with the a lesson here or there or what’s wrong with being kinder or more compassionate?

ALISON: And, uh, for someone that hasn’t read the book, it’s almost as each section begins with a personal story or a current event or something that you’ve read about. And I love the way you invite us to look at it differently or look at it another way, like, um, the football player story. I remember that so vividly, but I didn’t know all the details you had found. And, Emmett’s mom that broke my heart and and also learning about, um, you know, from my point of view, I just knew your husband as this man that gave these great reviews, and I’d see the movies he said yes to. But the fact that you talk about his goodness.

CHAZ: Oh, yeah.

ALISON: Like it picks up the veil a little bit. And I find that I found that very moving.

CHAZ: You know, one of the things that I used to tease him about is that for someone who actually had such a kind and generous heart, he had to go through life with the moniker of critic.

ALISON: Right. Right.

CHAZ: And there’s nothing wrong with film critics. Film critics– that’s a fine, fine field. But for someone who wanted to bring more goodness into the world to be called a critic, I just thought, okay, that’s a cosmic joke on you.

ALISON: That’s right. How did you pick the stories that you introduce each section with that? And that must have been an emotional process.

CHAZ: So  the personal stories I put in, because as I was writing the book, I said, I don’t want to make it sound like I am putting myself above anyone and saying, you do all of these things, I’ve achieved this and and you haven’t, and this is what you need to do. I wanted to have somebody say it, as somebody said, some skin in the game, and I wanted to show that I too just, you know, that I wrote the book for myself as much as I wrote it for anyone else, because there are some people in the book you talk about, like Mamie Till-Mobley, Emmett Till’s mother, who when her son went down to Mississippi in 1956, I think it was and was murdered. And his and they, you know, tied stones around his neck and put him in the river. And on the third day, his body, actually, it almost sounds biblical. His body rose from the depths of the water, and they were able to see how brutally he had been murdered. For his mother to have the presence of mind, to say, I’m going to have an open casket funeral so the world can see what they did to my son. Right. I don’t think that most people would have had either the courage or the presence of mind to do that while you’re grieving, and it was that brave act of a mother that actually caused more journalists to write about a black boy in Chicago. At that time, you didn’t see those stories that often, and she actually had attracted because of the empathy of other mothers. Thinking no matter what color they were, they could relate to that. And it really caused it to become really a galvanizing force in the civil rights movement.

ALISON: So I had to read that twice because I have two children and I, I it gives me chills even to think about it. I got so affected by that woman doing that. Yes. It makes me very emotional even just thinking about it. The pain that she must have been through in that church and in those moments in order to shed light for the world to see. It’s so unselfish that it is….

CHAZ: Wouldn’t you know, I was thinking most of our instincts would be… You just want to hide away. You want to go, you want to make yourself as small, to get away from the world, to shut out this cruel world.

CHAZ:  She opened herself and opened up and invited us in to try to stop this kind of cruelty from happening to other people. And another thing I love about this story. Roger and I got to meet Mamie Till Mobley.

JEAN: Wow.

CHAZ: And she had become a school teacher, and she said God took away her son, but he gave her all these other little boys and girls to be, to feed her life with, to to fulfill her her life and to teach. And she it was just I mean, there’s so many really wonderful things about what happened to her and her life afterwards because of the sacrifice made by her son. Um, anyway.

JEAN: Y,ah, that’s that was one of a very powerful story that that you share. And, you know, your book is so vulnerable. And it for me, it really opened up, um, as reading, reading some of your stories, reading like the Amish, the shooting at that Amish Amish school and how they (clearing throat) excuse me. Um, how they dealt with pain and actually embraced it and turned it around..

CHAZ: Yeah, they went to the house…to  the man who broke into that Amish school, the Nickel mine Amish community in Pennsylvania. And he separated the boys from the girls, told locked the boys out. And I hate to even say it, you know, he killed the girls and the families to go over to the widow of the killer of their kids, to say, I forgive you, I forgive him, I forgive him. Where does that come from? (coughing) excuse me.

ALISON: You’re the same,

JEAN: You know, it chokes you up,

CHAZ: It really does. There were for years I could not even think about that story without crying, without bursting into tears, Roger and I… that was one of the things that we would talk about. Where does someone find the divine, almost divine, depth of compassion or divine depth of forgiveness? The divine. And and I do believe that, you know, and when I was in graduate school, philosophy was one of my favorite subjects. And whether we were talking about, you know, Locke or Rousseau, whoever, whomever we talked about in philosophy class, I would always disagree with the philosopher who said, that man in the state of nature is a beast. He is the worst. He all of his instincts. I would agree with the philosophers who said, man in the state of nature is good or wants to be good, but sometimes they want Us to help set out the the circumstances to show their best selves rather than their worst selves. And I still believe that. And I know it may sound a little, you know, a little Pollyanna ish, but no, I’m pragmatic, I, I was a trial attorney. I’ve seen a lot of really horrible things, but I’ve also seen a lot of really good things, too. And that’s why I love that you you look for them and you find them and we, we celebrate them so that we can bring more of that out.

JEAN: Right? Right. And and there’s that phrase that says what you focus on increases, increases. The more we focus on seeing the good in others and certainly we’ve all we’ve all had forgiveness lessons and and I -to your point about it being almost divine, it is the other phrase is to error is human, to forgive is divine, and to bring that higher power of love and forgiveness into a situation. It does turn lemons into lemonade. And yeah, you give so many great examples and I love the the little journaling you have at the end … That’s very clever. It’s like a little workbook.

CHAZ: Little workbook at the end of each chapter. Yeah, yeah. Jean, you know, the publisher was the one I have to give the publisher credit for, suggesting that I put it at the end of each chapter. I wanted it to be a separate book, because as a kid, I was an avid reader, and I used to say, books are my friends, and I would not write in my friends. I would not write in a book. So I didn’t want to have a book that people wrote in. And they said, and they said, but people want to do it as soon as they read it. You give them an example. And I said, but could they do it? Could it be a separate workbook? They said, no, people want it right then and there. And a lot of people have actually said they like writing in the book immediately afterwards, because they said if they had to go get another journal or something, they may not do it. But if they’re if it’s in their mind, they especially in the chapter of forgiveness, more people have told me they started keeping a list of people that they either wanted to forgive or they wanted to ask for forgiveness from.

ALISON: So, i thought it was interesting. Your four qualities are forgiveness, empathy, compassion, and kindness. And I love the way… and maybe you could just help our listeners with this, describing some of the differences in the levels, because I really– you made it so simple for me because I’m like, well, isn’t empathy kind of the same as compassion. And how does kindness fit in? Could you just give us a quick rundown of that? Because that was great.

CHAZ: Yes. And I say that forgiveness is, and this is a really quick run through of it. You say forgiveness is the art of, and it is an art, or the act of accepting that maybe people are doing the best they could do at the time, and you want to relieve them from the…. you want to relieve relieve yourself from the burden of feeling a victim to something that someone’s done to you. So forgiveness is as much for you as it is for the other person. I’m going to come back to that one. Empathy is putting yourself in the shoes of another person, of someone different from you, of another race, age, political persuasion, Ethnicity, uh, and just trying to understand what it’s like to be that person. Even if you disagree with the person, just having some feel for what it’s like to be live that person’s life. When you have empathy, sometimes you develop compassion. Compassion is the feeling for wanting to help alleviate maybe an obstacle or alleviate the suffering of others. By putting yourself in their shoes. You maybe develop a compassion for their lives because maybe it’s something you didn’t understand before. Kindness is the action step. Once you empathize with someone and you’ve developed compassion for them, and you want to help alleviate the suffering or obstacle, or you want to uplift them in some way, kindness is the action step of what you do to alleviate that suffering or to uplift a person.

CHAZ: So that’s how I distinguish them. And the thing about forgiveness is I still love talking about Archbishop Desmond Tutu, because he gave me such a good lesson in forgiveness that I didn’t ,I didn’t see forgiveness that way. I always thought forgiveness was something you did. You were being magnanimous. And I’m going to forget I’m a big person, so I’m going to forgive you. And he said, no, forgiveness also is as much for you because it relieves the weight of your shoulders of feeling like a victim. It takes away that need to want revenge. And he talked about, you know, how he and Nelson Mandela, when they had the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, they lost so many friends who did not want them to forgive people who had committed egregious acts under apartheid. And he said, but he realized without forgiveness, there was no path to redemption. Without forgiveness, there would have been bloodshed without forgiveness, he said, I would have felt like I remained in prison.

ALISON: Wow. And, you know, that’s a huge worldwide event. But taking it down, like, even a little more simpler, when  allowing yourself to forgive, you don’t even have to tell the other person. You don’t, you know, and that’s what your book really reminded me. And the other thing that you said is self-compassion, is something that happens not in a vacuum. And the whole idea of you, it’s you really opened me up to thinking about things in a different way. And we’ve read a lot of these books, Chaz, for all. And really, I loved it. It really like and I think the forgiveness piece is so crucial because there are people that I haven’t forgiven exactly for what you said. And then this book allowed me to think I can do it right now.

CHAZ: Oh, I love that…Alison, I love it.

ALISON: I can release it right now, you know, and let it be. And and it was excellent. So I wanted to thank you.

CHAZ: Thank you. And, you know,  in the thing that where I talk about also the self-compassion part and, you know, for years I really didn’t talk about the fact that I had been a teenage mother. And when I was in college and I, I graduated, I think when I was 16, going on 17, went to college, found that I was pregnant. And back then it was like, shame, shame, shame on you. You, you know, this was really such a no no. And I felt that I had let my family down. Mhm. The eighth of nine children, I was the first one to go to a four year College. My two older sisters had gone, I think, to like maybe a nursing program or something, but not like a full college nursing program. And everybody was so proud of me. And then I thought, I’m going to have to drop out of school. I’m going to I can’t tell. Nobody’s going to like me. And they’re going to think I’m such a bad girl and da da da da da. And I was so down on myself. And when I was in the hospital for an unrelated reason, and the doctor said, you know, young lady, you’re pregnant, you know. Does your family know? And I said, no.

CHAZ: He said, well, I’m not letting you out of this hospital until you call them. And at that time they had these big phones by the bed. And he brought the phone to me in my hospital bed, and I had to call my parents, and, um, they all just rallied around me like angels. My mom, my dad, my sisters and brothers, my my my my college roommates. Everybody was so wonderful to me. No one made me feel ashamed. In fact, everybody loved my son when he was born so much, and the programs that I endowed today for young people are a direct result of that, paying it forward, that people did for me. Yeah, people sometimes, especially young people or emerging people, you don’t even have to be young, you can be just emerging, uh, just need a hand. They need, you know, somebody to give them a hug or somebody to give them an encouraging word, somebody to invite them for a meal, somebody to tell them, yeah, you can do it. Or or you’re a good person or I love you or something. And that’s what people did for me, and I, I mean, even to this day, I’m so grateful for that.

ALISON: Yeah. That’s so beautiful.

JEAN: It’s so inspiring because it really helps you realize that we are beings of of great love… We really are and when we share our humanity with another person, you know they can of course not accept us, but I do think more and more people are like, oh yeah, hey, I get it. You know, let’s, let’s work on this together. And, and again, that brings unity and a deeper feeling of connectedness that I know was your mission and your beloved Roger’s mission.

CHAZ: Yes.

JEAN: I’m curious. Um, so thank you for all that. So, did you and Roger have a favorite movie?

CHAZ: A favorite movie together?

JEAN: Um, like a movie that you felt that also, um, demonstrated empathy. So something that you thought, oh, this movie is really about Compassion and love and all of that.

CHAZ: Okay……I am monumentally unprepared to answer that question because there’s a rule, but I can’t think of any.

JEAN: Okay, well, we can brainstorm because I have a few. Yeah. Okay. Well, I, I love Forrest Gump. Oh….

CHAZ: We love Forrest Gump.

JEAN: Yeah. So did Alex and I.

CHAZ: We love it, you know because, and people would say no, but that’s they’re kind of making him seem like, you know, he’s someone who’s not very bright. And I said, no, I love Forrest Gump. We both did. Because first of all, seeing Sally Fields as that mother… Stepping up for him and making sure that he gets, you know, in the world. And then, the way that he looks at people and sees the good and sees the good….

CHAZ: You know, even though he (Rodger) had to review the movie, uh, in his job as a film critic, we also went on a date and just went to see the movie so that he didn’t think about reviewing it or anything, just to see it again. Yeah. We love, Forrest Gump.

JEAN: Yeah, I love it. Do you have a favorite movie, Alison?

ALISON: Um, well, I, I do love Forrest Gump, too. You know, there’s, um, there’s a lot of movies that I’ve really loved. I was thinking the other day about the movie The father that we saw with Anthony Hopkins, where he’s suffering from Alzheimer’s. And it just it really moved me, I think, because I’m reading a lot about Alzheimer’s and sort of and it really was it made me feel such empathy because, you know, he’s (Anthony Hopkins) fabulous and it allows you to really be in his shoes with a bit of the confusion and misplacing identities of people. And it’s really, It’s beautiful for that reason that it opened me up and I thought, wow, this is really a truthful experience.

CHAZ: Yeah, that was a that was a beautiful movie. And you know what.. What you’ve made me realize I need to sit down and put– if I’m going to be talking about this book. Yeah. I got to put together a list of movies. I have a whole list of movies that I love that are good, that I want to recommend to people.

ALISON: Yes.

CHAZ: There are movies that I watch that make me want to go out and, you know, commit an act of kindness or, you know, an act of kindness and goodness. And I have to put together a list. So I promise you, if we’re going to have a whole list.

ALISON: We would love that. Can you also maybe maybe the two of you, it might be interesting because you, you know, had such husbands that were so well known. You said the grieving process is personal.

CHAZ: Yes.

ALISON: Cn you maybe explain what you meant by that because, you know, we were so inundated, at least my age, with the Kubler-Ross five stages. And here’s the stages you go through. And yet I felt what you were saying was, you know, it’s a personal journey.

CHAZ: Well, and I want to hear what what Jean has to say, but I the reason that I wrote it in that in the book is because people had like a one year rule. And like after a year, Roger passed away April 4th, 2013, and by the next year, in 2014, people started asking me, well, are you dating? Are you doing this? And I would say, no, not yet. And or, um, what do you mean? They would start asking all kind of things. And I said, you know what? It’s only been a year. Oh, yeah, but it’s. But it’s been a year. Uh, no, a year is not enough time for me and for for some other people, especially men seem to kind of maybe start dating and get married sooner than women. I don’t know whether that’s that’s true or not, but I know for me, and then there were some women that I met five years down the road, they still weren’t quite ready. So I said, it’s just so individual for everyone. And I know the Kubler Ross, you know, seven stages of grief or whatever, that’s valid as well. But, Jean, what what about you?  I mean, grief is just so individual.

JEAN: I couldn’t agree more with what you just said, Chaz. Um, I too, after a year of some people were like, oh, are you dating? You know, and I….

CHAZ: And are you over it or whatever, you know.

JEAN: And I was like, that’s for me, like you said, it’s so individual. That was the last thing…. A year was just sort of coming out of the shock.

CHAZ: Right.

JEAN: of living without (Alex) like it was, you know, and um, and there are days that I think of Alex so much. He’s just in my awareness and I’ll be thinking about him and thinking memories. And then I come back.

CHAZ: About thinking, or are there some days that you actually feel them? And, you know, he’s kind of around somewhere?

JEAN: Definitely.

ALISON: Do you have that too?

JEAN: Do you ha

CHAZ: Oh, yeah.

JEAN: Yeah…Well, you know, how long were you a caregiver to to Roger from his diagnosis?

CHAZ: So for, I would I say the last seven years seven.

JEAN: Okay.

CHAZ: Of his life because um, he had actually, when we actually when we first we married and we were together about 24 years, we got married in 1992. Um, but we had been dating for a few years before then, and he told me when he proposed, he said, I have to tell you something. He said I had cancer once before, and odds are it could come back sometime. So before you give me your answer, I want you to know. And I said, oh, you know, I asked what kind of cancer and when was it? And he said, you know, I’ve been I as far as we know, it’s gone. But you never know once you have cancer. And um, so 1992 and I think in 2002 I think it came back, but then that was treated, it was thyroid. So once they take out your thyroid that’s gone. Uh, that cancer is that’s the one of the easiest cancers you can have, because once they take it out, if it hasn’t spread,  you remove the thyroid. That cancer is gone. But then the salivary cancer came back in 2006. So from 2006 to 2013, those last seven years is when he had, you know, the the hardest problems with it. And so the first year, 2006 to 2007, he was in the hospital for almost the whole year. So in and out. So but after that, even though he lost his ability to speak, once he got out of the hospital and got rehabilitated, he was able to write again, to go to movies, to go to the opera again, which we both love, to take trips with our grandchildren. So even though his life was different, it was not like it was a lingering or a sickness. So it wasn’t like a long caretaking process.

JEAN: Yeah. And how brave of him to share his story, you know, unlike his partner in business, Mr. Siskel. He he Gene Siskel. He he was more private about his health.

CHAZ: Right. I understand both.

JEAN: 100% because I think I’m a little more of, you know, Mr. Siskel…  and Alex, I was very surprised that Alex was so forthcoming with the pancreatic cancer. Um, but…

CHAZ: And how long… Was his from his diagnosis to.

JEAN: It was just under two years. Mhm. And it was all through Covid. So um, which is, which is you know, a lot of people have their markings in time. Oh that’s pre Covid. This is after Covid. But for me it’s more it it’s more around Alex’s…. oh that’s before the diagnosis. Oh that’s after, oh that’s before his transition. That’s after. You know? Covid was really in the background of my life and and as I know you know, like caregiving…

CHAZ: It’s all consuming.

JEAN: And Alison is an amazing caregiver also. And she’s helping a friend right now. And it and it lives in your brain. You know, it’s in your consciousness. Like how are you feeling? How are you, you know, moving through the world. How can I help you? Um, and I and I think this, this book that you wrote is also a great book to just have with you…. When you’re in a doctor’s– because it’s very uplifting your book and…

CHAZ: So thank you. Yeah. Because when I wrote it, I finished it actually during Covid and after Covid when things start opening up again, I reread some of the chapters and I realized I had been so influenced by Covid that some of the chapters were too daunting and too much of a downer. And so I tore them up and rewrote some of the chapters to make them a little more evergreen, or to make them a little more hopeful.

ALISON: Yes.

CHAZ: And so and I and I want to say something. So. Alison, so I just got, I’m not a psychic… My mother was, but I got some intuition. Your compassion is just… Where does it come from?

ALISON: I love people, I love people. My father, my father was a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter. I think he even knew Roger. Um, years ago. And he was a newspaperman, and, um. Uh, he just wanted. He was left on a doorstep and never found his parents. And that’s why he started reporting. And he was the, I think, the most compassionate person that I think, i just have it in me.

CHAZ: Wow.

ALISON: What what  initiated you asking?

CHAZ: Because I can feel it. yeah. And when Jean was talking. You are such a good listener. And you listen with such compassion. And it started pouring off. And I said, I want to know where did this come from? So every now and then my mother, you know, she would teach. She would teach us a lot of this stuff that she did the, the whatever, the woo woo. But every now and then when I pay attention. And she said, most people are intuitive. You just have to be really observant and you have to really go inside and wait and see and just be quiet. And then it just, you can feel it something.

ALISON: So thank you so much, Chaz.

CHAZ: I feel from you in so strongly.

ALISON: Thank you. You know, I, I really do love people and I really like just seeing you. I feel like we know each other because, you know, I think everyone wants the same thing. You know, safety, love of their children, love of their family, um, to be seen, to be heard, you know, and I, I that’s why I was so moved by your book. Is there something like, for our listeners that you could say, if we’re just going to start today, what are some small acts of kindness that we can move with just today, like just off the top of your head.

CHAZ: Okay, I’m going to say a small one, but I’m also going to say a big one because I usually don’t say the big one. I usually say the small one and something as simple as saying hello to your neighbor, or hello to a friend, or hello to someone, a coworker that maybe you don’t like that much and you have been kind of avoiding. Give them a smile and say hello and see how that turns things around. Maybe not immediately, but to me, we are in our devices so much and we’re looking and we won’t look people in the eye. And I just say sometimes, just stop, look somebody in the eye smile and say hello. It can change someone’s day and it can also change your day. The big thing that I’m going to start saying is something that I want to advocate doing. I want to start, um, and maybe, maybe you’ve heard me say this, some FECK dinners where I have people from different political persuasions around the table, but with a moderator, with someone like,you know who knows how to handle it…you don’t just put a very one from a very extreme side on one side and a very extreme side together. People more in the center or, you know, a little bit somebody right, somebody left Democrat, Republican, and start having people eat and talk and say, why do you feel this way? Explain to me, I want to hear I want to do some deep listening and tell me why. And not that you’re trying to convince me, and I’m not trying to convince you. I’m just trying to understand. And so sometimes invite someone who you don’t agree with  you, or just talk, talk to you.

ALISON: Do you know Chaz in Europe years ago? I don’t know whether it’s still happening. There was a whole society where you could rent a person, like a book….  it was a people library. So it would be like, um, someone that had very strong beliefs this way, would spend a half an hour getting to ask this person, that had beliefs where they just questions.

CHAZ: I love that.

ALISON:  And it became this big movement in Europe. And I thought, that is so– that moved me so much— like people right, left, black, white, um, tall, short. Anything that you could think of that would, that would create a question and you would spend a half an hour. And I thought, that’s so beautiful, and that’s what you’re doing. If you can start these dinners, where do you live?

CHAZ: I live in Chicago.

ALISON: My gosh. Well, if you do that, we’ve got to come.

CHAZ: Okay, you know what? I will invite you. And we are going to do it. We want to try to start…. But this is you know, time is getting away because this is already September,and we want to try to do it before the elections.  um, but you know what? Maybe we should let the elections go and then do it after that. I don’t know, but, um, I would just love to do that. And I know that sometimes  during holidays around, um, Rosh Hashanah or Easter or something, some religious groups sometimes will get together and do something similar. But I like to do it with people who really, and like I say, I wouldn’t advocate putting extreme right and extreme left together for the first ones it would be somebody who’s more open and willing to at least listen.

ALISON: I love that… Um, you know, we just have one quick final question, and it’s just an interesting question. What do you think… you know, insidewink is the name of our podcast what do you think that word means?

CHAZ: For me, and I think of an inside wink, an inside wink is when I feel that I have knowledge or I have the goods of something that’s happening, and it’s something I’m going to convey to someone else, and it’s kind of a wink at them. And I get that they… I see the light bulb go off in them and they are ah, they got it. Ah, that’s the inside wink. We both got it. That’s what I think of as an inside wink.

ALISON: That’s perfect.

JEAN: Yeah,

ALISON: That’s exactly right. That is perfect.

JEAN: very beautiful.

CHAZ: It’s perfect, everyone is right.

ALISON: Well… Everyone sort of is right. But I love that. That’s really beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so much.

CHAZ: Okay. And wait a minute. I think you were going to ask me another question. I really want your question.

JEAN: Okay. Do you like cake, pie or ice cream?

CHAZ: Ice cream.

ALISON: What Flavor?

CHAZ: I love it because, I said if there’s one food that I could just have, but  it sounds so terrible to say it, but even if I’m really full and somebody offers me ice cream, I could eat it. If you offered me cake, I’d say, oh, no, I’m sorry, I love cake, but I know I can’t have it….  i’m full. I’m satisfied. But ice cream, I don’t know, I think….

JEAN: What kind of ice cream ?

ALISON: Yeah. What flavor?

CHAZ: That’s where it gets kind of boring. Vanilla Haagen-Dazs is my favorite ice cream. But the second favorite is black walnut. And this one? You can’t go many places. Black walnut. Well, black walnut is probably actually my first, but because I can’t find it, I usually end up just getting vanilla or pistachio.

JEAN:  we love the same one.

CHAZ: Oh, really?

JEAN: I love black walnut.

ALISON: Also, pistachio to the moon.

CHAZ: wow… Okay.

ALISON: We’re very connected. We met in a previous life.

CHAZ:  thank you. Can I ask you one question, or is it time for this to end?

ALISON: No, no, no, you can keep going.

CHAZ: So what is your your overall like your goal from here on out, with the podcast or with what you’re trying to do, in like—because I want to tell you a project that I’m working on.

JEAN: Well, I would answer what our goal is, is just to keep interviewing people that are inspiring, that are doing great, you know, really good things in the world. And it doesn’t have to be monumental. You know, we just small acts of kindness. Um, as you know, it’s like such a big rippling effect, so.. What would you what would you say, Alison?

ALISON: I guess, like fous, it would be like, sort of allowing, uh, to spotlight, you know, we have people that make lasagna for their neighbor, and then we have somebody like you, and then we have, like, someone that makes a you matter card or, you know, and passes them out. And then we have, like, Val Kilmer, do you know what I mean? So we’re trying to show a spectrum, because sometimes I feel like all the big stuff gets highlighted, which is beautiful. But I really think that these small, not small, um, quieter warriors are so important too, you know, and so that’s we’re really just trying to get more listeners and more people.

CHAZ: So one of the projects that I’m working on now is directing my first movie. It’s a documentary called, Wellness Warrior, and it’s about Deborah Szekely , who is the founder of the Rancho La Puerta Spa and the Golden Door Spa. She started it when she was 18 years old. She’s 102 years old now, and she still lectures once a week in Tecate, Mexico, at Rancho La Puerta. And I’m so excited about this because she also talks about going out and just doing things and being good. And she talks about making a friend, and she talks about reinventing herself every ten years. And when she was 90 years old, she said she called herself, she said, from 90 to 100. I want to be the wellness warrior. I want to encourage people to take their health into their own hands and to start doing things. So when she was 100, I said, now that you’re 100, what is your what do you think that you want to do? And I thought she was going to say, well, now that I’m 100 I don’t have much time. But that’s not what she said. She said, if you’re healthy when you’re 100, you’re likely to live at least 20 more years. So I have to start thinking about what I’m going to do from age 100 to 110. And she said, the most one thing to do is make sure you always introduce young people into your life. So as your friends die out, you still have more friends.

ALISON: I love that.

JEAN: I love that too. I have a couple of girlfriends that that have passed on, and they were in their late 90s and they were people would say, Mary, what keeps you so young?, and she was like 101 when she passed away.. And she said, I surround myself with young people.

CHAZ: Yes, yes…

ALISON: Chaz, when you’re doing that, we would love to talk to you again.

CHAZ: Okay. All right.

ALISON: Maybe even with her. Like, we would love that. We would love to, you know, whatever…. If that could work out…

JEAN: Yes, we would love that.

CHAZ: Okay, I will try to put that together, because what I’m doing..  the film is, actually the short of it is going to debut at the Chicago Film Festival October 26th.

ALISON: Congratulations.

CHAZ: So Deborah will be there and then three other people from the movie. Norman Lear, you know, passed away when he was 100. He’s in the film, but I have the late, one of the ladies who started La Leche League for you know, woman who  nurse (breast-feed), Marion Thompson- she’s going to be there. She’s in her 90s. And I have another woman in her 90s who’s going to be there. Who  started this company with her daughter, and her daughter’s running it. And these women are so dynamic. I’m so excited to have them there. So maybe when  I have them all together, maybe we can do do something and we can all talk about.

ALISON: I would love that.

CHAZ: They’re all women who, like you, look for the good in the world. All three of them said, that’s what you do, look for the good. Highlight the good. Spotlight the good. Spotlight the people who are doing things that you want to see happen in the world.

ALISON: Right.

CHAZ: Anyway. Thank you.

ALISON: You’re inspiring and I love… I just really, am so grateful that you did this. Thank you so much. Thank you, Marlene! So really, Chaz, congratulations. You’re a little… you’re a spitfire.

JEAN: Yeah. You’re a force for good.

CHAZ: Yes. Thank you. As we all are…So thank you

ALISON: We’ll talk again. Okay. Have a great day.

JEAN: It was so great to meet you.

ALISON: Bye.

CHAZ: Bye bye.

JEAN: Oh, that was so nice.

ALISON: Wasn’t she… You know, she’s smart and on it. And her energy is so great. And I really enjoyed the book. Like, it’s such a, it’s such a nice read.

JEAN: Yeah. I think it speaks to the power of parables. You know, hearing stories, seeing them on movies. And then, you know, even if it’s not this exact same situation you’re going through, you can as she speaks about empathy, you can put yourself in someone else’s shoes and go, oh, you know what? I get it. I don’t… I get it. I can release my judgment around something.

ALISON: And, you know, I like the fact that she was so inquisitive and asked us some things.

JEAN: Yes,

ALISON: That really speaks to her and her curiosity and her wanting to just be very present.

JEAN: Very much so. And I loved when I said about you being a caregiver and how much compassion you have. She totally chimed in Alison. And she jumped on my bandwagon and was like, yes.  You can totally feel that about you. You’re very deeply compassionate.

ALISON: That that literally almost made me cry. I got so emotional because I felt like someone was like inside me, seeing me, you know what I mean?

JEAN: Like that’s intimacy.

ALISON: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.  It was very, very much intimacy. And that really moved me that she kind of stopped and said, can I ask you a question,… Like that… I think it’s very interesting when— because I’m very curious and I really do love people and I love asking them things, and it’s so funny when someone asks me something back… You know, it’s like I’m not prepared.

JEAN: Well, it showed me the fact that she acknowledged your compassion. I mean, I see it on a day to day basis, and here she just intuits your deep, beautiful heart, Alison….  and it takes someone,  well the fact that she wrote a book like this, devoted to these qualities of of love. I think they all fall under the umbrella of love. You know that she she sees it in another.

ALISON: So I have to hug you. I don’t even care. I’m hugging you. There you go.

ALISON: And I feel the same.

JEAN: Okay, that’s enough now. Okay. Alison. All right.

ALISON: I feel the same way, Jeannie about you… Were very, you know, having a friend, having companions and just a sense of community. And I felt like I really knew her in a way, it just was was a great time.

JEAN: So that was so please pick up a book of, um, the book, “It’s Time To give a FECK” , because we really enjoyed FECKing around with Chaz.

ALISON: That’s exactly right. It’s time to give a FECK –  elevating humanity through forgiveness, empathy, compassion, and Kindness” by Chaz Ebert. Yeah, really fantastic.

JEAN: Right so…

ALISON: Well, have a beautiful day. And do do something sweet for yourself.

JEAN: Yeah. And just smile at someone.  that’s all you got to do. Just smile.

ALISON: Say hello….All right. Bye.

JEAN: Bye.

Jean: I said hi first.

Alison: Hi. Uh, Jean’s going to say hi now.

Jean: I just did.

Alison: I know, you were excellent. Good job.

Jean: So you’re alone this morning or this afternoon at your home?

Alison: It’s so different because my husband’s at a fitting for a commercial, and my son is teaching kids. Um, I think it’s robotics today or something at a little school, so. Yeah. It’s so nice.

Jean: You have the afternoon to yourself.

Alison: I’m dancing around and, like. Yeah, just doing my bits. It’s very good. And you’re. What are you doing? Today you’re going to do. You’re going to go. You’re going to be busy, right?

Jean: Yeah. I’m going to get my hair colored this afternoon. And I finished some work on our podcast.

Alison: I love that.

Jean: So, uh, now we’re getting ready to interview Henry Shukman.

Alison: And, you know, okay. So do you meditate?

Jean: Not consistently.

Alison: No. Me neither. And I used to be more consistent. And his book, Original Love, is all about the power of opening yourself up to meditation, to awareness, to love. And, um, I’m really enjoying the book.

Jean: Yeah, It is such a beautiful book, you know? Yeah. So this is going to be a great interview. We’re so blessed to have this gentleman on our podcast.

Alison: That’s right. And then, um, and then I’m going to try to meditate more.

Jean: Same. And he’s got a great app called The Way. And I did download it, I love it, it’s so easy to use and I really love it.

Alison: Really?

Jean: I know I said that, but..

Alison: Will you show me?

Jean: Yeah, I’ll show you. Sure.

Alison: All right…Great. Okay, so here’s Henry.

Henry : Howdy. Howdy.

Jean: Hi,

Henry : Great to meet you guys. Thanks for having me on the show.

Jean: Henry, we are so, we are so excited to have you on our show. And, um, I just wanted to say how beautiful your book is. Oh, it’s absolutely gorgeous. And if you wouldn’t mind, can we just start off with with two questions? Um, why did you write this stunning book on meditation, and how did you come up with the perfect title, Original Love?

Henry : Oh, thank you so much. Okay, I’ll tell you, I was, um, about four years ago, right at the start of Covid. Actually, just before the start of Covid, I’d been doing a really busy round of teaching in Europe and America. And I live in New Mexico, even though I’m a I’m a Brit and I went up to stay in a cabin that some friends of mine have up in the mountains, way up in the north of New Mexico under these 200 foot cliffs. It’s incredibly beautiful place called Brazos. And I was going to just rest, hike a bit, you know, hang with my friends and just take it easy. And instead, the first morning, I had a cabin to myself, you know, they they had their own place as well up there. And the first morning I was making coffee and I was making my oatmeal, and this sentence came to me and I just had to write it down. And basically for the next 12 days, I filled four of those yellow pads with just freehand and and it wasn’t like I was writing all the time, but every day, maybe 4 or 5 hours, just like nonstop. It was like taking dictation. And and I realized that I was kind of trying to sum up everything that I learned and been actually trying to share without realizing it, exactly, in the ten years I’ve been teaching meditation, and in the 30 years or so that I’ve been practicing meditation myself.

Henry : And so it just kind of poured out of me. But I realized that it it made sense because it was kind of a it was kind of what I had learned in terms of healing and this thing we call awakening, you know, and like coming in a deeper presence, deeper and deeper and realizing how much we’re part of the world and not separate from it. And so it just kind of came out of me and I felt, oh my God, this is just a it was fun writing that, you know, but I don’t think there’s anything to it. And then I spent maybe a year typing it and editing it and cutting it and writing new stuff. And then I thought, well, I’d better show it to somebody. So I showed it to my wife, who’s not usually a fan of, I mean, you know, she’s kind of semi interested in meditation, but not the same way I am. And she said, man, this is this is great, this is great. This is what we’ve been waiting for. And then I showed it to another friend and he really liked it. And so, you know, basically it came I got around to sort of, uh, sharing it with an editor and an agent and, and boom, it took off like that. Now I’ve just forgotten. What was the other question?

Jean: Oh, so it was come up with the title originally the title.

Henry : The title, the title. Yeah. I’m so glad you asked me that, because basically, you know, I know as a teacher of this stuff that I’ve noticed a lot of people have feelings of unworthiness, feelings of shame. You know, it’s so common, you know, and often, you know, when people start meditating, you know, to whatever extent they want it in their lives, little hits through the day or whatever it might be. Just a little taste now and then. Often they just don’t find it comfortable because they hit up against this sense of unworthiness and even worthlessness. And it’s tragic. And I don’t know whether this is true or not, but I suspect some of it might come from the old Christian idea of original sin, that we’re somehow born bad, you know? And I’m not a theologian, so I can’t speak to the wisdom of that as an idea. But just on the face of it, I think it’s a terrible idea, you know?  and so I said, well, damn it, I’m going to I’m going to put my idea out there, which is original love. It’s like we’re born loving beings. And, you know, there’s a lot of research now in neurology and neuroscience that, yeah, we’ve got deep wiring for caring and sharing. It’s deep in us, you know. And yeah, it’s true. We can also be really aggressive and violent. But it doesn’t take a lot to open up what we’ve already got, which is a deep capacity for loving and, you know, of course, loving each other and other beings and loving this world. But even more than that, I think there’s a kind of, you know, this is maybe a bit woo woo, but a kind of fundamental love that is just present. And we don’t always feel it, for sure, but we can learn to feel it more. And that’s my mission, is to help people discover that they are already loved, whatever they do, there’s like an original love. So that that’s the title.

Alison: Wow. Well, we can wrap, we can end on that note. No, it was, it was it was perfect.

Jean: So beautiful. And and, uh, the person that wrote your foreword, you know, he he nailed it also in, in, um, in conjunction with Original Love, he talks about being homesick, like there’s this chronic homesickness… Isn’t it so true if we just remember, if we can fall back into our original love that really is so powerful.

Alison: And release like the longing of feeling, of longing and lack and fear. Yeah.

Henry : Exactly. And, sorry- go ahead.

Jean: No, Please you.

Henry : Well, I was just going to say that like that, that just the little tiny hits of that original love. Tiny little micro doses, you know, here and there, looking at a sunset, just, uh, even something as simple as just actually taking the time to just watch the stream of water coming out of the kitchen tap. It’s beautiful. If we just stop a moment of hit, pause a moment, and those little tiny micro doses of the love of this world that we’re in, the fact that it exists, you know that, that is the that is the healing, the balm that heals, our lack, our sense of being alienated and separate. You know?

Alison: You know, loneliness is considered an epidemic now. And I felt that your book, even though meditation is solitary. It, it it tapped into allowing us to heal that loneliness. Can you explain that dichotomy a little bit?

Henry : Yes. I think, you know, a lot of people, they take up meditation, mindfulness because they’ve heard it’s good to do and they think they’ve got to. Basically, it’s all about me and my mindfulness on my own, and it can seem even lonely. You know, I got to do reps at the gym and I got to do breath reps in my mindfulness, you know, and I think that’s wrong on a few levels. One is like actually part of the whole purpose of Meditation is to discover how connected we are. We are totally connected all other all other humans, we basically have the same equipment. We got the same human mind, same human heart, same human body, more or less by and large, you know, we’ve got the same emotion system, you know, and actually we share that with all the mammals. There’s some research that all mammals have seven emotions. They all feel, whether you’re a bat or a blue whale or a human being. There’s seven emotions we share. I mean, to me that blows my mind, but it’s it’s like it’s how we’re not alone, and in meditation, we’re discovering more and more the, the connectedness that we’re just kind of made of, you know, our very bodies as its molecules and atoms and subatomic particles, just like everything else in this world. And, you know, they’ve come to this form that is my body and my brain and all that. But it’s made of the same stuff as the whole planet, you know?  so the more, the more we just tap into a sense of connectedness. When we’re doing our mindfulness, we can really discover it and we can- there are practices for recognizing it more clearly. You know, the really and it comes home, we get these hits. Wow. I really am not separate like I thought, you know, and it’s it’s such a beautiful thing to discover.

Jean: Yes, I, I totally agree with you because I think what you present in your book is that is exactly what you said. Meditation is not, it also like this serious alone, it you actually make it feel very, um… You actually say it’s a good thing for you to sit and be still and quiet, and it’s good for the people around you. Yeah. I thought that was so great, Henry. And, yeah, you really take the seriousness out of meditation.

Henry : I think it’s supposed to be nice, right?

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Yes.

Jean: Like, I look forward to my coffee or my tea, and it’s just not a thing like to check off on your to do list.

Henry : That’s right. It’s, it’s a, it’s a little moment for you, for us to be with ourselves, you know, and, and it’s about a kind of self-kindness, you know, because when we tap into self-kindness, I’m going to I’m going to be with myself and give myself a little bit of time. It may only be three minutes. That’s okay. But it’s time just to be with my very own being, you know? And and that is like a nourishment. So when we then, you know, go to the kitchen table and it’s morning and maybe I’m a bit grumpy or something, but no, I just stopped for a moment. And like, I’m grateful to see my wife and my children have all left home. I see the two of them, but occasionally they’re around or friends come by or whatever. I’m more open because I’ve got that little bit of connection to my own deep, deeper being, and therefore I can, i’ve got more to share with others and my colleagues and and team at work. You know? There’s there’s more, i’m more ready to be open, you know.

Alison: You know, I, I liked this book so much because I felt that I’m not like you. Like I would meditate and then I’d fall off. I’d say, oh, I got that. And then I’d fall off the, you know? And I had convinced myself, I’m not good at this. I’m never going to get to that end. Peace.

Jean: Quiet my mind.

Alison: And I like that you were like, there is no end game here. Like it isn’t about, you know, it’s not the price is right. This is just, you know, just be quiet, you know?

Henry : Yes, yes, yes.

Alison: I found so liberating. I thought, oh, I can do that, you know, because I think the idea of awakening has been so ingrained as, as, like you got to get there. Can you tell us what you, what you’re feeling of awakening is?

Henry : Yeah. I’d put it like this. Um, it’s possible to go through little shifts of many kinds, and one kind is when this weird thing can happen, and many people have tasted it without meditating, ever. It’s a human capacity where we suddenly just discover this different sense of things, where our sense of being a separate person suddenly goes quiet, and we just feel we’re part of everything, and we truly belong in a much more radical way than we normally realize. So that’s awakening. Great. Fine. Good. But there’s and, you know, that would be a deep taste of original love from my perspective. But there’s so many kind of more ordinary ways that we can taste the same original love. Just a moment of like, hey, I’m not feeling so good, you know? And I’m just going to take a minute to just check in with myself and just notice. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course. You know, my son’s having a hard time and I’d forgotten. Or my coworker is going in for an operation or something. I’ve even it’s not in the top of my mind, but my body knows…  and then I just give myself a moment and I realize, oh, yeah, I’m. I’m a little troubled about that, you know? And it’s because so often we feel, and I’m speaking from my I should speak for myself, so often when I don’t feel so good, I don’t want to know about it.

Henry : My first impulse is to distract myself. You know, I might just pick up the phone because it’s anything not to notice this uncomfortable feeling. So I’m sort of saying, hey, that’s very understandable, but actually, let’s flip it and instead give ourselves a little bit of attention and a little bit of love and a little bit of, yeah, loving awareness and then I can be with a difficult feeling. Now I’m saying this because while awakening that discovery of a great unity that we’re part of is a real thing, and meditation can help with that. But it also happens out of the blue, you know, without in whatever circumstances, you know, um, it’s not the only game in town. It’s like, it’s not like we should be aiming for that. It’s because right here, now, we can find tastes of this original love. And anyway, even if people have one of those big sort of shifts in, you know, cosmic unity and all that stuff, they’re going to still, it’s like, it’s not like life’s over. They’re still going to be doing the daily grind. And yeah, they know they’ve seen this thing that’s different and it’s fantastic. But actually to really live an ordinary life that’s full of care and love. That’s the real, if there’s an end game, it’s the endless game of trying to live more aware and lovingly.

Jean: Oh, that’s so beautiful.

Alison: So thank you for sharing that. That’s beautiful.

Jean: Do you, uh, Henry, do you feel that the climate of our consciousness now is more ready to receive a book like, As Beautiful as yours? Because I certainly do. I feel that when the outer world is more chaotic, we must go within to find our true ground. So do you notice that?

Henry : That is so beautifully put. I you know, my feeling is like this, that that I believe that I do. I think and I think it seems like things are kind of hotting up, both geo geo climate wise and social society in society. It seems like they’re heating up and and more and more people are recognizing, hey, this isn’t right. You know, we’ve got to we’ve got to change the way we interact with each other. We’ve got to change the way we interact with our beloved mother, this planet, you know, and I do think that there’s something about things getting maybe worse that can actually be positive, that it makes it a bit more urgent and there’s more pressure to change. And I feel there’s an explosion going on of awareness, because if you look at like, you know, I started I started on this path I’ve been on in my mid early to mid 20s, i was 24 actually, And and I was, um, I was a little bit fringe, you know, to be meditating regularly. Yeah, a little bit weird, you know, and and now, you know, the numbers are staggering. It’s like maybe 150 million US adults have meditated. You know, that’s pretty mind blowing. And maybe somewhere between 20 and 50 million try,  to do it regularly. That’s spectacular. And so I’m like saying, hey, if you’re doing that anyway, let’s make it nicer. Yeah. You know, and let’s bring, let’s bring in some of the sort of, you know, the more the kind of, you know, the, the most beautiful stuff that you can find in, in your little bit of quiet time every day.

Alison: That’s that’s wonderful. Can you explain to me one question? Um, you talk about a communal imagination in your book. And I’m wondering, is that the same thing as sort of a collective unconscious? And, uh, can you describe that a little bit? Because I think a lot of I’m just seeing sensing that more and more these days.

Henry : Yes. You know, I’m not an expert on it, but I would say it probably is basically the same as that idea of a collective unconscious that like, if we go kind of a little deeper into our own awareness, our own consciousness, we start to get to these sort of layers that just everybody has, you know, and I think it was Jung, the great psychologist, who came up with the idea of the collective unconscious. And I think one of the things that gave him the idea was he was doing this research into shamanism around the world, and he found that, you know, Inuit shamans were encountering all these different entities and, you know, animal spirits or whatever on their shamanic journeys. So were shamans in Siberia, so were shamans in Brazil. And some of the old Celtic shamans of the olden days reported the same thing. It’s like, how can that be? You know, these totally different, uh, geographic zones, but they get deep enough. They’re finding the same stuff. And so he came up with this idea, I believe this is the origin that, you know, there’s a level in our very own minds, each of us, where we share a kind of, I don’t know, some call it the power realm. You know, I think it’s religious in a way, like all the saints and the power figures in African religion and in South American religion, they I think they’re all down there probably, you know, doing their own stuff.

Jean: And that was such a good question, Alison. So, Henry, I’m really enjoying, not only did I am I loving reading your book, as I’ve said, uh, your app, your meditation app called, The Way. This is so great. I can’t thank you enough because it’s easy. It is fun. You give so many wonderful tips and let’s try it this way. And, um, and now I talk to my friend Mark, who I’m like, oh, I did my sit this morning, and, uh, and I love your app.

Henry : Oh, I’m so happy to hear it. Thank you. You know, the you know, the thinking for us was behind it was just, in a nutshell, was like this… Our research showed that there’s 3000 meditation apps and basically all of them, yeah, isn’t that something? You know that right there says something, you know. Yeah. But but basically they’re all typically they’re like libraries of great content. And so you’ve got, you’ve got maybe 100 or 2000 courses to choose from. And not everybody likes that. They get a decision fatigue or decision paralysis. Like which one should I do. So we decided to just go all in. It’s a big gamble on a totally different method and approach, which is like there is one pathway and you follow and every you, every time you’ve done one sit, boom, the next one loads up for you. You just hit one button and it’s going to lead you on a long journey into some of the things we’ve been talking about. You know, ten minutes a day is what it asks. But you you don’t have to spend ten minutes figuring out what to do. It’s just boom, ten minutes you’re in, you know, straight away you’re in.

Jean: Like, a little gift every day. I, you know, you look forward to- oh, what what is Henry going to present today? And, um, oh, Henry, I did want to ask you, i was looking at my notes for a second here, just going back to mindfulness, because I was always under the impression that meditation was another word for mindfulness. And, um. And maybe we did talk about this a little bit in our interview, but, um, when you talk about absorption, can you talk about that in

Alison: The Four Inns were so fascinating.

Jean: You give four inns –  mindfulness, support, absorption and awakening. Um, but can you talk a little bit about absorption?

Henry : Yeah, sure. I’ll just let me just say like a little bit of framing of the whole thing. Like basically most people think meditation is just mindfulness, right? But in the, in the wisdom traditions that I’ve trained in, mindfulness is viewed as like a foundational practice, but it’s not actually the end. There’s more we can do. And mindfulness would be basically being more present, being more aware of what we’re experiencing right now. Like right now while we’re talking, I can feel the soles of my feet. I can feel my seat. You know, I’m aware of the room around me and your beautiful faces and and I can still talk. So I’m aware of more aware of now, you know. And that’s just great. And that may be all somebody wants. But there is more. There’s like the connectedness and support in the second in, or in the app, actually, we call it zones. Zones one, two, three, four. And then absorption the third zone. That is when there’s a gear shift when we’re sitting and, you know, instead of it being like, hey, I’m trying to stay aware, I’m trying to stay focused on whatever it is, the breath or sounds around me or something.

Henry : There’s this weird shift, and suddenly it just becomes easy and it becomes beautiful and kind of clear and calm but energized, and it just feels so good. And I think that’s like a flow state, you know, that when athletes and musicians and artists, I think basically everybody gets into flow states at times when that suddenly, you know, it’s kind of effortless and we feel very aware without having to try at it all. And it’s sort of beautiful. You know, there’s stories of like, basketball players in the midst of some difficult play, and suddenly it’s like time almost disappears and they don’t know how they did it, but they did this super difficult thing. Yeah, it’s kind of it’s kind of like that with, you know, we can taste that in being quiet with ourselves. And then it’s even more sweet because it’s just you don’t need anything. You don’t need a basketball court, you don’t need a violin. You don’t need to be listening to music. It’s just you, you know, with yourself and your own being. And suddenly it becomes this timeless, beautiful, peaceful, but energized awareness.

Alison: Do you ever do you ever get crabby when you don’t get a parking spot or something because you seem so calm, like, does it,  do you have that kind of stuff still going on in your life or are you…? And then if you do, what are like, what’s a tip right then when you feel like or maybe you don’t?

Henry : I Would say , I’m definitely a work in progress very much, you know, um, but I, it’s true that it’s, I do so way less than I used to. That is really true. And I think the, the secret of it, is not minding.. It’s just not minding. And for me that’s come through basically my heart has got more and more open over the years. And some of that’s because of this practice, I think, and some of it is because of different kinds of heartbreak I’ve just been through that, you know, has made me have, you know, were very difficult at the time, but somehow they helped to open my heart more. I believe in heartbreak as a as a gateway, you know, and we don’t wish it on anyone. But it can really it can, it can it can kind of make life richer in the long run, you know. So I believe I tend to like anyway, I want to be more a little bit more helpful. Let’s see. So a tip, let’s say I’m getting like…You know. Well I might I might go through a little bit of a.. And then I can just switch gear and like, okay there’s a bigger view. I might be 5 or 10 minutes late and actually it’s going to be a good meeting anyway, or whatever it is that I’m, you know, doing or if I’m, if it’s not a meeting and I’m just going to the store and I’m going to be home ten minutes later, it’s really is it a big deal? No, it’s not a big deal. There’s a bigger picture. There’s always a bigger picture.

Alison: Right. And I love the idea of not minding. And that really is a hard thing, because I think sometimes my brain likes getting on that horse and riding it around town, you know? But I think that’s right. My heart will be like, yeah, really?

Jean: Yeah. And to me, what you’re saying, Henry, is that, you know, just don’t judge the present, you know, that was your experience.  Oh wow, that had a trigger for me. And just letting that be, what that was. Um.

Henry : That’s that’s beautifully put. Exactly. Don’t judge. Yeah.

Jean: And and that’s so easy. hahahah

Henry : Well, I’ll tell you for me, you know, what I feel is always allowing. Yeah. Allowing. You know, there was a teacher who said to me, at the start of a retreat, he said, well not just to me, to the whole retreat. He said, there’s three things that matter most on this retreat is a multi-day, deep retreat. You know three things. Allow, allow, allow. Mhm. And that really helped me and has stayed with me.

Jean: Yeah.

Henry : You know, can I be a person who allows more than his inclination is. Allows what arises. You know and I’m I’m learning. I’m I’m still on the path. Totally. You know.

Alison: I think some of it’s age too.

Henry : That’s probably true. You know, we just…

Jean: As we do, you know, have more life under our belt.

Henry : Yeah. Yes.

Jean: I think we just like we as they say, you know, you choose your battles and.

Henry : yes, yes. As a young man, I just flail into every battle I could, you know?

Alison: That’s right. Yeah. It’s like us. That’s exactly right.

Speaker4: Yes.

Jean: And I have a dear friend who always says, Jean, there’s power in the pause. Yeah.

Henry : That is so wise. I love that that’s that’s summing up what I’ve been trying to say in three words.

Alison: Power in the pause. Yeah. I love when you describe the tapestry of life. And you begin to see that there’s this, you want to live between the stitches?

Henry : Yes, yes, yes…Letting the light,  the light comes through a bit more.

Alison: That made me, that brought tears to my eyes for some reason, some of this book, really some of the questions you asked and some of the ways you touched me, evoked an emotional response that I wasn’t even aware of. Like, you know, you can watch a sappy TV commercial and, you know, it’s manipulative in that way and you’re going to be crying. But this all of a sudden I’d be like, oh, like, I was really taken aback by it and I just got chills… You did a really good job of that.

Henry : Well, thank you so much for sharing that. I’m really happy to hear it, because in a way, as a writer of this particular book, that’s that’s what I probably wanted more than anything, you know? But I didn’t know whether I was doing it because the whole thing came out. So, so sort of by itself, you know, and I sometimes wondered, maybe it came out of that collective unconscious we were talking about, or at least sort of a deeper place somehow. Yeah. So I had no idea really how… I still have no idea how it’s really going to affect people, but I’m happy to hear when it does.

Alison: Some of the questions that you you’ll just all of a sudden in the middle of a chapter, start to ask these like a series of questions, and I go, oh my God, you’re blowing my mind, henry, this is great. Do you know? Like it’s really… And like, the idea of a koan. Is that how you say it?

Henry : Yes.

Alison: That’s fascinating to me.

Henry : Yeah. These Koans are these little questions and phrases that are in the Zen world. Yeah. And a lot of them are, you know, 1200, 1500, 2500 years old. And and they’re often really strange. You know, there’s a famous one. What is the sound of one hand, you know. And what does that mean? What? I don’t even know what that means. But sometimes, you know, people can just have that in the back of their mind. They’ve read it somewhere or heard it, and all of a sudden one day they just get some little ah, wow, there’s some wisdom in there that I can’t fully explain, but I feel it. Yeah, it’s sort of it stops me in my tracks in some way. Yeah. And my ordinary path through life gets just interrupted. Paused…Just pause.

Alison: It’s Pointing to something?

Henry : I believe so, yeah. Something about who we are.

Alison: It’s. It’s like your brain goes. Wait, what? You know, they’re really interesting. They’ve really stuck with me. That was really fun. Thank you for those.

Henry : Oh. Thank you. I’m so glad that that was your experience with them. That’s what I hope. Yeah.

Alison: Oh, good. Yeah.

Jean: Well, Henry, I, you know,  we’ve sort of reached our time even though there is no time…hahah..  Uh, well, we would like to ask you, what does inside wink mean to you? That’s the name of our podcast, so what does that..

Alison: What do You think it means?

Henry : I think it means, that there’s a little bit of a joke being played on us in this life, that we think we’re so important as me. And actually, we are important and we are precious. But it’s not the me that I normally think. It’s like we’re all ready, okay? We’re always already okay… That’s the kind of cosmic joke that we get caught up in not realizing.

Alison: That’s that’s a great answer. Thank you for that. That’s a great answer. That’s true. Wow. It’s amazing because that’s so you. That answer is perfectly from you. So thanks. That’s great. And do you like pie, cake or ice cream? We’re just curious.

Henry : You know, I had a brain injury about about four years ago and had a post-concussion. And I’m better now, but I can’t have gluten and I can’t have sugar, at least not a lot of it. So I’m not great, i mean, I’ll tell you what I would love of is a gluten free, sort of fruit based pie of some kind. You know?

Alison:  yes, we knew about your brain injury, and Beth told us that, and it just is, um, that was very powerful. And I’m so glad that you’re feeling better.

Jean: Yes. Henry.

Henry : Yeah. Thank you. I’m really kind of happy it happened because it… You know, they say the longest journey is from the head to the heart. Mhm. And that head injury actually sped up my journey.

Alison: Wow.

Henry : Because I could, I could live here in my heart better than I could in my head. And I hope I can keep that now that my head’s getting better.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah.

Jean: Exactly. And and isn’t that our mission? Our soul’s mission is to live from our hearts. Yeah. And the mind is helpful,  but it is living from our hearts,  and you certainly have given us a beautiful roadmap

Alison: with Original Love. Thank you so much. And thank you for, thank you for talking with us. We really, I feel so great right now. Thanks to you, so thank you.

Henry : Well, so do I, thanks to you guys- hahahah

Jean: This has been such a treat. And thank you.

Alison: So we’ll stay in touch.  I can’t wait to read your next book, whatever comes out next time.

Henry : Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So good to be with you guys. Thanks so much for having me.

Alison: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Have a beautiful day.

Henry : You too. Bye bye.

Alison: That was the best interview –  Henry and Original Love, I just…. Yeah, he was amazing.

Jean: He is amazing. And I love that he brings a new, for me anyway, he brings a new, um, inspired desire to to start meditating again because, I used to meditate pretty regularly and then I, I didn’t do it, but I think he brings a new yea-ness to it,  not such a seriousness to it, you know.

Alison: And that it’s such a, a generous gift you can give to yourself, which is what it used to feel like a chore. Yeah. Like, okay, you got to do it. Okay? Now you got to do five minutes, you know? But he is just very loose about it and very relaxed. And you can just feel his, he thinks, he loves it and you can feel that enjoyment.

Jean: 100%. And a big thing for me is when he would say, you know, celebrate the minute you notice that you have wandered off into thought. That’s the point of celebration because you already know. Okay, now I just go back to my breath or one of the other pointers he gives you to to tap to bring back your awareness to your breath. Um, I feel so fortunate to have had this interview.

Alison: I’m going to I’m going to remember that, and just I’m celebrating right now that my brain went off track.

Jean: because my brain is like 4th of July. That’s right. I should be applauding like every…

Alison: Woohoo! Here we go with our brains. Well, thank you so much. And Original Love is really worth it, and his app. Yeah.

Jean: His app is great. I’ve been using it. So thank you. Henry.

Alison: Thank you so much and we hope you have a great day.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Bye.

Jean: Hi, there.

Alison: Okay, let’s try it again.

Jean: Let’s do it. We’re going to do it right this time.

Alison: That’s right. We are. We’re going to do it perfectly.

Jean: The ninth time is the charm.

Alison: It’s the ninth inning. This is all they get, you know? And we’re trying to make it perfect because the people we’re talking to are specialists in podcasts.

Jean: That’s right. The name of Lauren’s company is Tink Media. So, um, we get to interview Lauren Passell.

Alison: And Devon Andrade.

Jean: Very nice.

Alison: Isn’t that perfect? I love that name.

Jean: It’s beautiful. Well, both these people are beautiful and they are fertilizer for your podcast.

Alison: You know, I love that. Not the manure kind, though. The perfect, good, juicy fertilizer kind.

Jean: I didn’t know there was juicy fertilizer?

Alison: Yes there is. Take it from me. I’m from the Bronx, I know gardening.

Jean: Okay. Um, so, oh, of course you do.  haha –What was I thinking? I don’t know why i thought you were from the Midwest?

Alison: hahah- In those cornfields, I’d get lost. These two are so wonderful. They helped us with inside wink, and they gave us such great tips and ideas and got us on a more solid track, don’t you think?

Jean: Absolutely. I feel a sense of like, renewed passion for inside wink.

Alison: Me too. And I feel very confident. And I think because they give that off, they give off confidence and kindness and just they’re very accessible, right?

Jean: Yeah. And they make you feel you’re on the right track. But just here’s a couple of little tweaks to do.

Alison: So here they are Lauren and Devin.

Alison: We did it.

Jean: Yay!

Alison: Hi there. Hi, Lauren and Devin. How are you doing?

Lauren: Oh, it’s so good to see you. Hi. Thanks for having us.

Speaker2: great to see you.

Devin: Yes. Thank you so much.

Jean: We are  excited…. Really, this is a treat for us because you have been such a benefit to our podcast. And we can’t wait to share your wonderful organization, your company, Tink Media.

Alison: yes, we  have been so interested in you guys and we’ve done like a little bit of research and we’re interested in knowing why you think podcasts are so important right now? Like how many podcasts are there even millions of podcasts in the world? I don’t even — i don’t even know? Like everyone and their mother has a podcast and I’m wondering  why you think that is, and why is it important?

Lauren: Well, I think, and Devin will know the real answer, but I would say the number is humongous if you ask how many podcasts there actually are. But the number gets a lot, a lot smaller, when it’s how many are actually releasing episodes with, uh, on a regular basis and even smaller when it’s like how many people are actually caring about growth. That’s that’s actually a teeny number. But Devin, how would you answer that? Like that actually are putting thought into what they’re making? I think it’s a surprising number of people that just start one and you go and they have 1 or 2 episodes because they go and they go, whoa, this was harder than I thought, right? You can probably speak to that. But Devin, how would you answer that question?

Devin: I think I would answer it the exact same way. Like there are, there have been a lot that have released at least like 1 or 2 episodes, but the ones that are like consistently active and still putting out is not as high as some people like to joke that it is. So that’s why we also always tell people like, yeah, there’s a lot of podcasts out there, but there’s also still lots of space for more podcasts. So even though everyone and their mother has a podcast, don’t let that stop you. Because another thing I always hear too is like, how many books are there in the world? Oh, that’s how many new TV shows are even coming out. Like, I can’t keep up with those. But like all these other forms of media, there are so many to choose from. Podcasting is not different from that. I think people just pointed out with podcasting more because the barrier to entry isn’t as high. Like anyone can make a podcast, which I think is like a mostly a blessing, but can be a curse in some circumstances.

Lauren: Well, yeah. And also I think that means that there’s for listeners, there’s something for everyone, no matter what you’re looking for. There’s your community. Whoever you’re looking for, you’ll be able to find it because. Because the barrier to entry is low. You know, that means that whatever you’re looking for, it’s there.

Alison: Right, right.

Jean: So, Lauren, let’s talk a little bit about yourself. And can you tell us what got you so inspired to create this company, Tink Media?

Lauren: Well, I, I was a fan of podcasts before I worked in them. I worked in book publishing, but I was just a big fan and I think I started listening- i was injured on crutches, and I wanted something to listen to, um, because I liked reading and I was like, well, I want to do this, but I can’t read while I’m on crutches, so what am I going to do? Um, so. And then Serial blew up. Do you remember Sarah Koenig’s? Did you ever listen to Serial? Okay, so that happened shortly after. And that got me. Really? That became a moment. Um, Devin, were you a Serial person when it was happening or were you before Serial? What was your timeline?

Devin:  I was late to the Serial party. Like I probably listened in 2019. That’s so late.

Jean: I didn’t even get an invite to the Serial — to this breakfast party. I had no idea of this.

Lauren: It’s never too late, i was just recommending it to my mother because she loves true crime. And I was like,  it’s something I think anyone in podcasting should, should experience. But, um, you know, when I was at the book publishing company, I was not on the PR team, but the PR team would come up to me and say, Lauren, you love podcasts. We’re trying to get David Sedaris on some podcast to talk about his books. Can you pitch him? And I was like, yes, but why are you so bad at this? I’ve loved to do that. So originally I left. I loved that job. I was sad to leave, but I started this company because I thought, I think there’s something here. Um, just pitching authors to podcasts to get to talk about their books. That’s what my company originally was. And yes, I named it after Tinker Bell. I don’t know if we’ve talked about this yet. I’m a Disney nerd, and I never thought it would be anybody other than just me and my laptop. But, um, Devin was one of the first people I hired, and it really, I just needed somebody for this weird job. I was like, how do I even find people that love podcasts like I do? And I saw a tweet from Devin. I did not know Devin. I saw a tweet that one of my friends liked and it said, I wish someone could hire me to write about podcasts lol or something like that. And I DM’d Devin and I said, do you want to work for me? Because I just knew and it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made in my entire life.

Alison: Oh, I love that. Did did you know that, Devin, that you were like that, that that whole that little tweak got you the job? Like, did you know that?

Devin: I did, honestly, I was in shock because it really it was one of those things that you. I tweeted it out. I like threw my phone on my bed and I was like, yeah, that’s just a random thing. You tweet. And then like, I went about my life and then I think maybe like the next day or next couple days, I get a DM and I’m like, Why is Lauren DMing me? Like, I knew who Lauren was. I loved her work. I loved what she was doing in podcasting. And I was I was like, what is happening? No, this can’t be real. But it’s I’m so glad that Twitter was still a thing then, because if it was Twitter now, I like, what if I never met Lauren? That would be devastating.

Lauren: Wow, don’t say that. Now I have to be really grateful for Twitter. It’s so true. And I the thing is, I think I like everyone that works at Tink. I don’t look for people that understand marketing or PR. I look for people that love audio and podcasts and Devin loves podcasts more than anyone I know, and that’s because I think I like it when, you know, our goal is always to grow podcasts. I don’t need people that understand marketing and PR. I want people who can look at other podcasts like a producer. I want them to have a producer hat on, and that’s what Devin thinks. Devin thinks like a producer because she’s a listener. She likes to think what makes podcasts work and what makes them good. So that’s why she’s so good at her job. And that’s why I could talk to her about podcasts forever.

Devin: I feel like that story, too. It feels like it was just, uh, like dumb luck. But I also know that it wasn’t because I had been, like, learning about podcast marketing and wanting to figure out what my place in the industry could be if it wasn’t going to be making podcasts. I was like, there’s so many out there that might need support and like finding their audiences, and I could help do that. So I was trying to learn about Lauren’s work to the point where, like Lauren, I was watching like any webinar that you did. I was reading your newsletter. I remember there was one time I was, I had signed up for one webinar. I forget what it was about and you and Ariel were doing one at the same time. I think you were doing like a live thing on Twitter, and I was like, well, I’ll go to the one I paid for. And then partway through the one I paid for, I was like, this isn’t really helpful. I know all this stuff. So I was listening to you on Twitter instead, while this other webinar was happening because I was like, I’m learning more from Lauren and Ariel right now. I didn’t.,

Lauren: I didn’t know that -Oh my goodness.

Alison: Well, Devin, what were you what was your job prior to this?

Devin: I worked in digital media production and content production at a college in Toronto. So I was as part of that, I was doing video editing, I was doing social media, I was doing web development. And because I was listening to podcasts, I was like, we should have a podcast, we should do audio stuff. And the school I worked at, you know, it also had a radio program and had a journalism program. So I was also like paying attention in those spaces to like, what is the podcast curriculum look like right now too? And I did end up teaching a podcasting course at the college and creating a podcasting course at the college. And so all of that together, I was like in the digital content production space. And then kind of during the pandemic, when I wasn’t as busy, I was learning more on the side, and that’s how I came across Lauren’s work and kind of transitioned into the podcast marketing space.

Alison: Oh, that’s great.

Jean: That is great… Can you share with us what are some of the services that Tink offers?

Lauren: You want to go? Devin..

Jean: what would you like to be known for at Tink?

Lauren: That really good question. Um, what do we like to be known for? Oh my gosh. Well, there’s I wonder. Yeah. I mean, basically we help podcasts grow. That’s what I would say the baseline is. But the and the way that we like to think about that is, you know, we think collaboration with other podcasts is what works. And it’s actually what makes me love my job so much because guessing is a really collaborative space. Um, so, you know, that means it’s a lot of it’s a lot of partnerships, a lot of the best thing, you know, sometimes someone will come to us and say, can you spend advertising? Can you buy ads for us? Will help. You know, we have $10,000 to spend. We’ll buy their ads. We can’ do all those things. Um, we can pitch, you know, to media. We can do all those things. But I think our favorite thing is, um, finding other podcasts. And this is going to sound kind of cheesy, but I feel like I’m going to save space. So, um, finding podcast friends, that’s what we call them. We call them podcast friends. And we that we think, what are the shows where the audience is going to align because we really think works is borrowing audiences from similar, you know, space, similar audiences and borrowing audiences from them, switching things.

Lauren: So, you know, that’s setting up a promo swap, which is a 32nd ad for a podcast that you hear on another podcast, and we swap those and, you know, so finding these podcast friends and then we pretend to put them on podcast play dates and we say, how are these podcasts going to work together? What is it- like when you look at each one and we say, what are they going to do together so that we get our client in front of the this other audience? And, you know, so that’s I think what works the most, it’s it’s the way to get your most you know, you can buy an ad if you want. You’re not going to get those organic, you know, that organic growth and you’re not going to find those perfect listeners. They’re going to come back over and over again and be your biggest advocate and tell all of their friends about you. And honestly, telling friends is the best way to grow a podcast.

Devin: If someone tells their friends about you. It truly is the best way.

Alison: I,love that. Yeah.

Jean: And I loved also Lauren, I think. I don’t know if it was you or Devin, but, you know, I’m. I have an Instagram account and and you were sharing with me that it’s not always about me just saying, hey, we have Ed Begley Jr on our podcast this week or it’s it’s more that you want to address the audience that do listen to podcasts. So it’s getting your podcast in the pool of people that are interested, just not randomly shouting out, hey, this is what I’m doing. But I guess that can help. Yeah, but it wasn’t it wasn’t your go to for our Inside Wing podcast.

Alison: Yeah, that was a real revelation to us. You were so kind and ,oving and generous. How do you keep that going? Dealing with all these podcast people like you must talk to a lot of people. And yet we felt that we were the only ones that you that you dealt with.

Devin: I mean, I, I, I can’t speak for our whole team, but I think that because our team loves podcasts so much, we love the people that we get to work with. So it’s it’s easy, like it’s never something we have to think about where it’s like, how do we make sure they feel like they’re our only client? It’s because, like you, you are, you know, even though we’re balancing all these different ones, we care about all of them so much sometimes, like almost to our own detriment, where we just get so invested in our work and like, we want podcasters to succeed so, so badly. Like we want to help this industry grow because it also like it is so new. There is still so much that can happen that will evolve, that will get better for the listeners and for the podcasters. And I think that our whole team, like we just really care about helping that happen for so many people. So it’s because we genuinely care. We’re really excited about working with podcasts like we do research all the time, and we just get to explore all the podcasts out there. And then when somebody comes to us and they want to grow their show, we get excited about the possibilities and sometimes we– if you’re on a call with us or a meeting with us, sometimes we will just like go off with ideas and possibilities because we get really excited in the moment because we see the potential. We’ve seen it in action and seen it work, so we believe in it. So I think that all of those pieces together make it kind of easy for us to have that vibe all the time. I don’t know, Lauren, what do you think?

Lauren: Yeah, and i heard, I feel like I heard someone explain it like we’re in a playground, like because we have all these tools to work with. So when we get a show, it’s like we’re, we’re we’re at the playground with the show. It’s like, what tools can we use? What can we go on in the playground that can be like, fun and like make it work? And also, we are having a lot of fun. We like each other. Um, that’s huge. And the other thing I will say is, you know, podcast marketing, there’s a lot of people making podcasts. As we said, there’s not a lot of people growing them. There’s not a lot of podcast marketing companies. So we’re really lucky that, you know, I mean, just we have there’s a lot of people that need our help, but we don’t get we don’t have to work with just anyone. We wanted to work with you because we like both of you and we really like your show. Um, we don’t if we if someone approaches us and we don’t think they’re a good fit, it doesn’t matter. We don’t. We tell them we don’t. This happens. We say we don’t think we’re a good fit for each other. We want to be happy, and we want to make sure that we can help someone grow so that if we don’t think it’s going to be a happy experience. We don’t want to have sleepless nights, we don’t want to be stressed, and we don’t want to not help someone succeed. And we don’t want to help a show grow that we don’t believe in or we don’t like. So we don’t work with those people. So we’re pretty happy with our client. We love our clients. We love our clients. That’s why. That is why.

Jean: I love that you love that. And you can so feel that, Lauren. And that speaks volumes to you being the CEO. And of course, Devin, you’re, um, you’re just such a beautiful light over at Tink. Can you, can you share some, like, 1 or 2 mistakes that you see podcasters.

Alison: That’s a good question.

Jean: Just one like 1 or 2.

Lauren: I’m going to start with a big quick one. And Devin, you and we can maybe do take turns, but this one’s just get it out of the way I. This is because it’s kind of funny. Podcasters often put a microphone on their cover art, and you don’t have to do that because that’s like, if you’re watching a movie, if you had a movie poster, you wouldn’t put like a film reel on it, you know what I mean? Like, we all know that it’s a podcast. We’re here. You know, when you’re looking at your app. So it’s we I can’t tell you. We do podcast therapy consulting. How many times I have to say, you don’t have to have a podcast, a microphone, and everyone goes, no, but mine is different. I do need it. And I’m like, think about it. Just think about it. You really don’t need a podcast microphone or your headphones. We get it.

Jean: We get that it’s audio.

Lauren: Yeah, yeah. We’re here.

Alison: That’s so funny.

Lauren: Yeah.

Devin: Oh, that’s a really good one. I kind of forgot about it too. But something else that comes to mind too, is that sometimes podcasters will come to us and they’ll say, I’ve never listened to another podcast before. And I mean, I can understand And if it’s not your favorite thing to do. But if you’re making a podcast, I think you should be listening to podcasts just to like, hear how other shows are doing it, to get ideas, to figure out what makes your show different or unique. And like if you like podcasting, you’ll like listening to podcasts, and all of that will spill over to your audience and to your show and just making it better. Um, so yeah, I feel like that is a big thing. Like everybody who’s ever written a book has also read a book. So if you make a podcast, you should listen to podcasts.

Jean: Yeah, that is true.

Alison: Yeah, that is very  true. I, I’m like you, I love podcasts and I think the reason I love it is because it gives me a sense of community. And I feel like, uh, especially during Covid, I just felt very connected in the world in a different way than TV, and I’m not sure why. Maybe because it’s like in your ear or in your head or something. Um, what do you think about the idea of podcasts and and community? Because I think right now we really need to feel safe and have a community in the world. What are your thoughts on that? Because you deal with so many podcasts.

Devin: Oh, this is like when podcasts feel like your friends like getting into like that parasocial relationship territory. But it’s it’s so true and it’s so strong. And I think you’re right, it is something to do with like them being in your ears and them being that close. But also the shows that create that sense of community are the ones that are balancing, you know, bringing value, bringing information, but also bringing themselves to the show. Like there are hosts of shows that when I found out they were not going to be running anymore, I cried. I like was, yeah, what what am I going to do on Tuesdays now when there’s not going to be a new episode? And I think it’s just because you feel that close to them. You hear them every week. For some of us, that could be more often than you hear, like your best friend’s voice. Like, that’s really, really powerful. And I think that’s what helps make podcasting so special. It’s kind of like maybe over said in the industry that the intimacy of podcasting makes it special, but it’s true. That’s why it gets said a lot. Um, but I think that is it doesn’t come automatically. It’s something you have to work on, like building that feeling with your audience. And it’s something that we’ve seen both of you do. The way that you bring your friendship to the show, that is what builds a community. That is what makes people feel like, yeah, I’m hanging out with my friends Allison and Jean. That is special.

Lauren: Yeah. You want in on the friendship? You really do. And yeah, I think, um, you know, when NPR canceled a few shows, there was like this burst, and we actually had to have a team meeting at Tink to ask if people were okay because we were so sad. And that’s something like, you know, like, that’s, um, and I think another thing kind of going back to something that people do wrong, I think in order to do that, you have to be consistent because you have to you have to be there for the listener because, you know, you have to be there for them. And that’s what what that’s what they, they need. That’s what I need as a because I’m more of a listener than a podcaster, I don’t we at Tink, we do everything but actually make the podcasts. So that’s why I don’t know all the tech stuff. So I’m a much bigger listener and I need the podcast to be there. For me, it’s like I feel, yeah, I feel like it’s, um, I feel like it’s I feel, um, the podcast that I love, they make me feel less alone. They make me feel seen. If I’m having a bad day, I know they’re going to be there. Yeah. It’s truly sometimes, um, I my I turned my husband into a podcast listener. I made him so we I forced it upon him. So now he’s a podcast listener.

Alison:  I love that.

Lauren: Sometimes I sit with him at dinner and I said, I say, where did you go today? What did you learn? What adventures did you go on? I almost can’t believe it’s most mostly free. You know that I can go into any world I want. It’s unbelievable. I never, ever take that for granted.

Alison: Right – yeah, I totally I totally agree with you. I have some podcasts that I feel like they know me well.

Lauren: Can you tell me a few of your your favorites?

Alison: Uh, well, I, I have always loved This American Life.

Lauren: It’s the best.

Alison: There is something about This American life. Even before it, you know, like it was on TV for a while. I’m really old, but it was like on TV for a while, and I love that. And I love, um, Roman Mars.

Devin: Oh my goodness. Yes.

Alison: I feel like I know, I feel like I know that guy. Like, I feel like I have no idea what he looks like, but like–

Lauren:  you’re so funny.

Alison:  I feel like I could bump into him, i wouldn’t recognize him, but I could definitely.

Lauren: But if he talked, if he talked, though, can you imagine if you’re a restaurant and you heard his voice and he…

Alison: I’d be like, oh, Roman. Roman.

Lauren: It’s funny you say This American Life,  because I do feel like This American Life, , there’s so many flashy new shows all the time. Right? And it’s like This American Life keeps on,  100% consistent.All This American Life is like there’s every single week. It’s there for you. And those some of those bright, shiny shows go away. Or even just like off season. But This American Life is there for you and it’s always the best. It is the best and so I always want to think, don’t forget about this wonderful show that has been there all along. It’s such a good answer.

Alison: And I love, you know, I love Rupert Spira’s podcasts and I love like like now I’m listening to Giggly Squad and they are so funny together.  it’s like you and I but in your 20s.

Jean: Because I think podcast the dynamic does change if it’s just one person that’s staying with the questions and then, you know, you have to be more courteous and let you know there’s an exchange when you have two people. You know, I think it’s actually a little in one way, I think it’s easier that that I have a partner. It’s like playing doubles tennis, like, you know, you’re not out there alone and you’re it’s not all on you. And then on the other side. It’s acknowledging Alison’s strengths and sort of I know this is something she’s going to. That’s the angle she’s going to take. Or um, you know, I’m going to be more this way, but I, I could not be more thrilled to be doing this podcast together ,ith you Alison.

Lauren: Well, not everybody can do it but it’s so natural with you two like, not everyone should do it, but I feel like it feels very right  because you have a good friendship. That’s if you have the friendship, you have the good base. Mhm.

Jean: Yeah that’s true.

Alison: Yes. Yes, yes. Have you guys met in person. Because Devin you’re in Toronto right? And Lauren where are you in New York.

Lauren: I just moved to Philadelphia a couple weeks ago.

Alison: Wow, I love Philadelphia. Have you seen each other in 3D?

Lauren: Devin came to New York, and I made her go to my favorite restaurant, Yeah, we got I got to hug . I think it was one of the longest hugs of my entire life.

Devin: Yeah, She was like, I’m not going to let go. I’m like, that’s okay. We met like last August was the first and only time we’ve met in person so far.

Lauren: We’ve got to do it again. Someone from our team is moving to Toronto and I’m so jealous. She tells me about it every day. She rubs it in my face. So. Yeah.

Devin: Yeah, we’re going to dinner tomorrow night. I’m sorry.

Alison: See? See what a different world we live in, right? That you guys can be so close and have only hugged each other one time, right? It’s kind of amazing.

Devin: It’s wild. And that’s like, with so much of our team has not met each other in person. But we feel so, so close. Like there are some times on like Friday at 5 p.m. we’re all like, well, I know we have to go for the weekend now, but I would, I just want to keep hanging out with all of you, you know, like that’s I can’t even imagine what it would be like if we were in an office together. It would. I don’t know if we could handle how good it would be.

Lauren: Wel, our our goal, our team goal, um, is never we always talk about our goals, and it’s never, like, money related or anything like that. It’s all human spirit, soul, person related. And right now we would love to plan a retreat where like that is where we can all, you know, find someone’s house or find a get an Airbnb or something and have just a few days to really, really. Because I think it makes such a difference to be together so that we’re like trying to like, figure out that’s what the money is for. If we have extra money, that’s what it’s going for, because I think it’ll make a huge difference. We’d have so much fun. We were just at Podcast Movement, some of us in Washington DC, which is the our big conference.

Alison: And how is that? What can you tell us what that is?

Lauren: Yeah, I mean, it’s just this, you know, it’s a very corporate conference where all the podcasters, people in the industry come together. And, you know, I spoke on a panel about marketing and a couple people from our team spoke on panels. There’s parties, there’s just events. It’s like I call it my summer camp because to me it is running around us. Suddenly, I don’t know what time it is or what day it is, and nothing matters. I’m just my friends are there. Like I get to see clients, old people I’ve worked with, you know, and I, you know, for the first time ever, I brought some people from Tink and they actually spoke on panels. So for the first time ever, I always speak on these panels. But I was in the audience watching Tink people speak and I was crying like, I know I cry a lot, but like, I was so moved. Someone gave a presentation  from my team, gave a presentation on metadata that everybody was like, metadata is so cool. I was like, yes, they (my team)  made metadata so cool. There was a panel with Shreya and Ilana from my team, and  the way they were looking at each other, I was like, I think they’re in love with each other. It was so cute. It was so cute. And we went to this one party. I was just talking about this with them, and I think I was just telling Devin about this. We were invited to this party run by another company, and we just all– what we did was we found a booth and all of the Tink people came together. And I said, yeah, we’re at a party. But we were just hanging out with each other because really being together is really special. So hopefully we’ll get to do that someday.

Alison: Love that.

Jean: That is so great. I have a friend that that uses the word PLERK – it’s play and work together

Alison: That’s exactly right. I think that’s a great word.

Lauren: I’m stealing that we’re having. We are. So we’ll credit. We’ll credit you every time we use it. That is so good.

Jean: No, not me, but, yeah, Plerk. Yeah. And isn’t that, I think the the true expression of things that we can work together and we can play together and, and you know, it doesn’t have to be so, so sterile and, you know, just just have fun because life is short and there’s there is a lot of good out there. And you, you are all part of sharing such good, good stuff.

Alison: Yeah. It’s you really feel joy in the workplace with you guys, you know?

Lauren: Well, that’s what your podcast is all about. I feel like that’s what you two are doing.

Jean: That’s right. Yeah. That’s why you’re on our podcast.

Alison: That’s right.

Jean: We’re sharing your good.

Alison: What would be your hope about podcasts? What if someone has never listened to a podcast? What would be your hope that they the takeaway would be if they started, or how would you get them to engage in a Podcast.

Lauren: It’s funny because I used to think that, you know, I know about so many because all I do is listen. I listen to so many. I thought, oh, I would find the perfect podcast for each person, so pretend like someone lived. I’m from Ohio. If I knew someone in Ohio, I’d be like, you know what? I found a podcast about Buckeyes and I’m going to send it to you because you’re from Ohio and you’re going to love it. That’s wrong. I’ve changed my mind about how to find someone, get someone to listen. You just send them the best there is. So that means sending them this American life. That is the new way I get people to listen to podcasts. I don’t try to find the most perfect little podcast that I think they might like. I just send them the best one there is, which is probably This American Life. So that is how I like to get people. And I think, I don’t know, my hope is that I guess I’ll put it simply, my hope is that they hear a podcast and then they want another one. That’s my hope. Devin, how would you answer?

Devin: Um, okay to get someone to listen to a podcast. I definitely agree with Lauren, but I do think that more and more there’s this sweet spot where it’s it is a really high quality podcast, but it also has like some kind of familiar element to it. So whether it’s like an interest or it’s like a person they already know, you know, like there’s a lot of celebrity podcasts out there right now that are just kind of celebrities making a podcast for the sake of celebrities making a podcast. But they do serve a really nice purpose of being like someone’s gateway podcast, because they’re familiar with Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Jane Fonda. So they’ll listen to that episode, and then they’re like, okay, so this is what a podcast is. And then once you get them familiar like that, you’re like, okay, so if you like that one, try this one. And with each podcast, you know, they grow a little bit more familiar because I think a lot of people, it’s they either don’t really know what it is or they don’t know how to access it. So I have done all different kinds of things to help people figure that out, whether it’s like giving instructions on how to access a podcast based on what I know about their comfort level with technology and where they might be listening and things like that. And then it’s like finding the ones that are really perfect. Like, I found one for my dad that he listens to religiously because it’s from somebody he already knew about.

Devin: And so he was already going to be invested and ready to listen to every episode. Um, I found one for my aunt. This came out earlier this year, Broom Gate, which is about curling, and my aunt did curling. She loves curling. So I sent it to her and we all listened to it and talked about it. But like a few years ago, neither of those things would be true. So we are just getting more options that make it much easier for us to do this, and to talk to the people that don’t listen to podcasts yet. Um, and then what’s I mean, my hope is the same as Lauren’s. Like, I just hope they keep finding more podcasts and that we can get podcasts past this point where they feel like a joke or like, not a real thing. Because I think that the outside world has this idea of what podcasts are. But then once you get into them, you see what they really are. And like I said, like books and TV shows and movies have always existed and have always grown, and audio has always existed and always grown like radio and radio stories were huge. So none of this is new. It’s just like the technology and people catching up with each other and meeting somewhere where everybody gets it. That’s my hope.

Alison: So you would like to inspire people to listen and also to jump in, put your toe in and jump in?

Devin: Yeah. Because I think that’s another thing is people are like, well, I don’t know if I want to dedicate how do I know I want to dedicate my time to this show. I don’t. How do I know I’m going to like it? But that’s the same with a movie or a TV show or a book. You start it. Maybe you like it. Maybe you only make one episode or read one chapter and then you’re out. Go to another one. The thing with podcasting, too, like Lauren said, we’re so, so lucky that so many of them are free to access. It doesn’t cost you any money to try one and then go find another one. You don’t have to finish it, but you can easily dip your toes and then figure it out.

Alison: I love that.

Jean: That’s so true. You know, Devin, I never thought of podcasts as like, a radio show, but you’re so right. I remember sitting with my dad, and he would listen to something on the radio when he would be driving, called the Bickersons. And, you know, it’d be these couples that would bicker and and I do remember thinking– being a little girl in the back seat thinking, oh, this is sort of like a TV show. Just you’re just hearing the audio. And I thought that was really cool, that, that. And now and so now it’s sort of that, but a little more polished. And lastly, I just want to add that I think it’s so great that people– there’s so many different types of podcast topics and that you can do  your own podcast if that, if you really feel  called. But it is a lot of work.

Lauren: It is  work.

Jean: I mean, it sounds easy. It’s like when people would say to me, oh, Jean, you own a flower shop. That’s so fun and easy. And like, owning a flower shop is a lot of work. I know it sounds very cute and like, oh, I love flowers and it’s a lot of work.

Lauren: Just sounds like they’re like, oh, she’s in a rom com. It’s just so easy, right?   I love that story of you, picturing you and listening to the Bickersons. Thats so cute… yeah, it’s like radio, except you can listen. That’s how I explain it to people , it’s like radio, but you can do it whenever you want. Like you can, you know, you don’t have to wait for your show to be on there all the time. It’s so great.

Alison: That’s right.

Lauren: I want the Bickersons to come back. We got to get the Bickersons on podcast. Yeah. Where’s the Bickersons?

Jean: That’s something you and Dan can work on.

Alison: Dan, that’s my husband. See, the way she’s saying, we’re always bickering.

Jean: No, no, no. Just because you both have great voices.

Alison: I know, I’m totally teasing you, I love you. I love that. Uh, so, um, the amount of love and support that you guys emanate, I just want to encourage anyone that’s thinking about a podcast to go to your website. And because you have so many resources right on your website for beginners, right?

Jean: I consider you sort of like fertilizer for podcasts.

Lauren: That’s good, that’s good. Oh, we’re going to have to steal that. Can we put that on our website?

Jean: Yeah. Yeah of course.  Because that is the number one reason why we reached out to you, Lauren, was because we saw that, you know, you help grow podcaster’s audience.

Alison: So if someone has an idea for a podcast, are you the person–Would you be someone that they would talk to in the preliminary stages of that? Or is it better that they are doing something and then contact you guys?

Lauren: People can contact us at any stage,  we’ve helped people develop ideas. Sometimes people just want to know, you know, our ears are always on the ground with the industry too. Like, is this a good idea for a show? Is this something that could be, you know, sustainable? Do you think we could make money off of this someday? So we love talking about podcasts no matter what stage they are. And even if, um, you know, Devin and I were on a call today where I said to this woman, I said, I don’t know if we can help you, but maybe we can put you in the better direction. So I would just say, reach out to us and we’ll we’ll push you in a better direction if if we know, you know, we know a lot of people in this space and it’s a very collaborative space. So we’re always happy to send you to somebody else. If you want to make a podcast, we want you to make a podcast. We want to get you there.

Jean: That’s beautiful.

Alison: Thank you. So as we wrap up, we have two questions. What does Insdiewink mean to you? What do you think that means?

Devin: I feel like the wink part of insidewink. I don’t know if I hear it talked about that much. So me, to me, it’s like your way of exuding that positivity and optimism and like, goodness, but like in a way that it’s like you’re winking to the world, you know, like it doesn’t always have to be overt. It can sometimes just be like a little nod to the goodness. Um, so I think that’s kind of your inside wink. It’s not always the big things. It’s the little things that are happening or that you’re doing or that you’re feeling that come back to your goodness and the world’s goodness.

Lauren: I love the name. And I also love that you ask people because it can mean so many different things I love it. I thought and it’s funny because we’re talking about your, you know, friendship. I thought it was kind of like you two have this almost like communication, almost like a language between the two of you that’s really special. And it’s like I see you insideWinking each other like, I got you. Like you know you’re inviting us in. But you have this relationship. But also your audience gets to share on that inside wink. So it’s kind of like, to me, inside wink is friendship. It’s that is what an inside wink is. It’s your friendship. It’s who, who do you feel this kind of like connection with? Where it’s like, you know, you’re winking at each other, but you’re feeling it inside? I don’t know, but I love that there’s so many different interpretations.

Alison: We’ve been asking people this question, which actually I think was your guy’s idea. Yeah, so you inspired us for that.

Jean:  That came from your podcast therapy, which we did, and we love it.

Alison: Um, I think it’s interesting because when people answer this, it really speaks to who that person is. So when we ask people what inside wink means, they’re really exposing the beautiful part of themselves because each answer we’ve gotten has been different. They’re all correct. And it it shows you there a little glimpse of their heart. It’s you know, it’s kind of been amazing. Yeah. I thank

Lauren: But it’s like you didn’t even think of that when you thought of the name. Right? It’s just. That’s so interesting. It’s like a metaphor for how beautiful this show is. It’s like it was there all along. I love that so much. I love it so much.

Alison: How beautiful people are.

Lauren: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Alison: And our next question.

Jean: It’s The soulfulness of people being expressed outward.

Alison: That’s right. Yeah. Do you want to do the our last question is,

Jean: Do you like pie, cake or ice cream?

Lauren: Okay. I do remember during podcast therapy, I suggested something , and you can say, no. I feel like I, I want to guess Devin’s. You don’t have to guess mine, Devin. But can I guess your’s?

Devin: I want to know your guess, because I know you’ve been thinking about this a lot.

Lauren: I’ve been thinking about it way too much.  I’ve been doing research. I’ve been asking people, okay, so I don’t— You said cake, pie or ice cream, right? And it’s not cake. It is not cake with Devin… If I could pick anything, I’d say donuts. But donuts wasn’t on the list, so. And it’s tough because you talk about ice cream a lot, Devin and I know that you have favorite flavors and you go to ice cream shops– i know this, but I also feel like Devin is a very good chef and cook, and so I feel like making pie. You’d be very good at that. And I would like you to make me a pie. I’m going to say ice cream,  I’ve been going back and forth in my mind. Just got it. I didn’t even know what I was going to say on this call, but I’m just going to say ice cream.

Devin: Okay. I mean, you’re right with donuts. Donuts would be the answer if it was an option. Um, and I’m not surprised that you said ice cream because I have told you several ice cream related stories. Um, but I think the plot twist might be that my answer is actually cake.

Alison: Wow.

Lauren:  oh, wow.

Jean: I can see that because if you like donuts, that’s sort of cakey.

Devin: And, like i have not made very many pies, but I really like making cakes. Like, even trying to decorate cakes with something I was doing for a while. Not like at all in a professional way. I just wanted to, like, have fun with it and see, like, how pretty can I make a cake? And I will still do that sometimes. So I like eating them and making them, so I think I will choose cake, but ice cream would be second. But donuts were in, then it’s a different conversation.

Lauren: I have to go talk to Holly and Alana because we were at dinner and I was we were all kind of like, well, it’s absolutely not cake. Like, let’s move on from that because, wow, okay.

Alison: Look at that. A discovery between friends, right?

Lauren: Still, after all that,  I was so sure.

Alison: Devin, do you want to guess? Lauren’s?

Devin: I honestly don’t know. I don’t think it’s ice cream for you. I don’t think it’s pie, either. I don’t know. I feel like we haven’t talked about desserts enough.

Lauren: It is…..Do you want me to tell you?

Devin: Yes.

Lauren: Okay.  You were right. It’s absolutely not ice cream. Like, not even close. Like no ice cream. I feel like the texture, but pie for sure. Okay.

Devin: Okay.

Lauren: And  i would prefer rhubarb/ strawberry. Both.

Speaker5: Yes.

Devin: Wow. Okay, okay. I mean, good choice.

Lauren: I mean FYI.

Lauren: Yeah, but I can’t make one. But you can make pies, Devin. You’ll make me a pie at our retreat. Okay.

Devin: I yes, I will get better at making pies just for you.

Lauren: Okay. Thank you.

Alison: Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you for all the love that you have shown us.

Jean: You really have. We’re just so grateful that you’re in our lives. And you’ve helped us grow and  you’ve helped us also feel more value within doing our podcast. I always loved our podcast, but I. I really value it even more. So thank you for that.

Lauren: Um, that is I mean, we have goals for our clients, but that’s the best one ever to hear someone say that. That’s very moving. So thank you. And thank you for the wonderful stuff you’re putting out in the world too, with your podcast. This is like it means, and I can’t even believe we’re on the show. Like, can we talk about that? Unbelievable. So thank you for having us on your show.

Jean:  we love it and we love you all.

Lauren: We love you. Yes.

Alison: Thank you so much, Devin and Lauren. Yeah.

Devin: Thank you.

Jean: So have a great day and we will get back to you really soon.

Lauren: Let us know if you need anything. Thank you.

Alison: Love you. Bye.

Lauren: Kisses. Bye. Okay.

Jean: They are awesome.

Alison: I love that they truly enjoy their work. And they they seem to really love podcasts. Just as a medium as  the whole idea of it, you know?

Jean: Yeah. I think that’s the whole secret to success is loving what you’re doing.

Alison: and they’re very creative. Like they’re always coming up with ideas- like that was the thing, like we’d hang up and my hand would be tired from writing down what they were saying. You know they have so many wonderful creative ideas.

Jean: Yes. I really also appreciated that they sent us a list of all their tips. After our phone calls, they sent a great email that outlined the phone call, outlined all the tips, and I think that was such a well spent, well spent money for what we received.

Alison: And even if you’re just thinking of a podcast, their website has so many tips that you don’t cost you anything. They have newsletters and ideas for things, and little discussions that really give you insight into podcasts. And I think podcasts are important because it creates a greater sense of community and you can find anything you want. Like she said, there’s a podcast for curling.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Like, do you know like, that’s beautiful to me. Yeah.

Jean: So. So please, if you are a podcaster or know of one, this is a great company. If, if they need a little boost or fertilizer, as I said on the podcast, to  grow, grow your audience.

Alison: And even if you’re just interested in podcasts, their website, Tink Media  is so interesting and I, I think I’m really leaning into the idea of podcasts because I think anything that brings us more together and shows us more insights about other people, I think is so important right now.

Jean: Yeah, because we really are all the same.

Alison: We’re all the same.

Jean: Even though I like cake and you like.

Alison: I like ice cream, I know I really like ice cream.

Jean: But that’s good.

Alison: Yeah, I could eat ice cream on cake or pie. See, I like it all.  I like the turducken….

Jean: Yes you do.

Alison: Of the whole thing. I’ll eat it all. You know me, right?

Jean: I’m a little single lane on my desserts.

Alison: Really?

Jean: Cake.

Alison: Cake, well there you go. Now you know. Everyone knows now about Jean’s dessert preference. Well, we hope you have a great day. And we hope this was a little insightful and shared some good about what we’re doing.

Jean: Right, and what Tink Media is doing. Yeah. All right. Have a great day.

Alison: Bye.

Alison : Are you ready?

Jean: I’m ready.  Did you turn it on? Yes you did.

Alison : I did that look that.. I turned it on and everything.

Jean: you want to catch something?

Alison : I want to.. I want to, like, just be so spontaneous.

Jean: Then you should have the recording going when I walk in the door. Because that’s when we do our best talking.

Alison : That’s right, that’s exactly right.

Jean: That’s when I tell you all the secrets.

Alison : That’s right. Tell me a secret right now.

Jean: I don’t have any secrets from you right now. You pretty much know everything.

Alison : I have, I wanted you to just look at my neck again. My neck feels so soft right now. It reminds me of my grandma. And I’m making Jean look at it because I love how soft it feels. Did you ever have that with, like, your grandma? Like a part of her skin or a smell or something that makes you think of her ?

Jean: Not so much that, I have great memories of both my grandmothers. I love them dearly and I have more of memories of doing things with them.

Alison : Not like my… I think for me it’s like lilac because they had lilacs in their back yard.

Jean: I have memories of lilacs also.

Alison : And also a part of her skin on her arm that when I was little it was so smooth and soft. I found it comforting.

Jean: That’s so sweet.

Alison : Do you know what I mean? So. Yeah. Um. I miss my grandma. Do you?

Jean: You do talk about your grandmother every now.

Alison : I never knew my other grandmother because my father was left on that doorstep. But, it’s very interesting, the love you feel for people, you know?

Jean: Absolutely. And I think, um, it’s nice to have lovely memories of our grandparents or just to go back and go… Yeah, that was really special.

Alison : Yeah. Right. Um, and speaking of loving people, Who are we talking to?

Jean: Well, we have Ed Begley Jr, who I don’t know, Alison, this guy, I feel like I’ve grown up with him.  not only on television, but I have seen Ed Begley Jr. all around town. And he’s familiar to me. And yet he’s a little removed because I never met him in person. I know he was at my home. I know Alex and him were sort of friends, and a time I would come home sometimes and Alex would say, oh, Ed Begley Jr and I were talking today and, and he picked olives from our tree outside and I’d be, darn, I missed him because I also just want to give him a hug.

Alison : Yeah. He’s so… We’re going to be talking to him today. We read his book and it is fantastic. It’s called, “To the Temple of Tranquility and Step on it”.

Jean: And that is such a great title and I really strongly suggest reading this book.

Alison : It’ll make you feel good.

Jean: It’s so humorous. And there’s so it’s so soul bearing. Yeah. And there’s so much to take away about friendship and forgiveness and gratitude and not rushing through life.

Alison : Right, right. Exactly, exactly. So, uh, let’s do our interview.

Jean: Yes, let’s.

Alison : Let’s. Okay.

Ed:  Hello, everybody.

Jean: Oh, hi, Ed

Alison : And thank you you for doing this? We’re good.

Ed: So nice to be with you both.

Alison : This made me laugh and cry at your book. Made me laugh and cry.

Ed: I’m so happy to hear that. That was my intention, it’s a nice mix of both.

Alison : Yes, I’m Alison,

Jean: And I’m Jean.

Ed: So good to see you, I think, and you tell me if my memory is correct. I came in once and met you and Alex over at the Santa Monica mountains Conservancy Matter. For something to do with the trail. What have you. Because I was on the board of the Conservancy. It’s many years ago. Of course.

Jean: Yes. Ed, and and Alex and I, uh, really enjoyed your career… you’ve given us so much pleasure over the years, and he was so happy to meet you that day. And I think you came over and picked some olives.

Ed: I definitely did, he made a great joke out of the timing of it because I called him and said, you’ve got some great olives. The olive tree in my, uh, yard have died this year. I got some Mediterranean olive fly, so I’ve got no olives. So I’m going to go over to your place, if you don’t mind, out in the street and pick some olives, and I’ll give some to you.  So he came back out before he’d gotten the phone message and said, Begley do I have to call security? I got to call the cops on you for stealing olives? hahahah Yeah, but I called. I swear. He said I’m just pulling your leg, for Christ’s sake- take as many olives as you like.  I brought some over, and hopefully you enjoyed them. They’re good olives. A nice Mediterranean recipe for curing olives.

Jean: Indeed.

Ed: So good to see you again.

Jean: You too, Ed. And thank you for sharing your  generous, powerful life. And I, from a heart perspective and a joyful perspective, i loved your book, so thank you for taking the time to put pen to paper and make, uh, give us some wonderful lessons and insights.

Ed: Well, I sure liked writing it. It was fun to write, and I wasn’t intending to write a book at all. My daughter Hayden, brought her smartphone into my den one day and said, I want you to just tell me in this phone some of the stories about different things, stories that you’ve shared with me about your dad and, you know, Marlon Brando and different people you worked with and encountered over your long life and career. Would you do that? And she took about an hour’s worth of, you know, video of that. So that’s great. You know, when do you want to do it again? She said, I got time next week. And in the meantime, some other things came up to me. I went, I’m going to take these notes before I forget them, for Hayden, for this archive, for her and for my grandkids. Just an archive for them. And about a day later I went, I’ve got a book here. I had like 45 pages of stuff. That was the beginning of a book, I guess that took maybe 4 or 5 days to do that, but I was I was so happy. I said, you’re fired. I think you’re going to be happy. Why? I’m going to write a book out of this, Hayden said. If you need me, I’m standing by with my camera.

Alison : That’s great.

Ed: The keyboard of the computer became like a Ouija board that actually worked. By that, I mean, you know, took me to the real attic and the real basement of my mind. Different things that had happened, opening doors that hadn’t been opened in a long time, and it was delightful. It was fun to write, and I did it just for fun, and some other people have enjoyed it. And thank you for reading it.

Alison : It was beautiful, and it made me fall in love with people that I only know, like Bruno Kirby.

Ed: What a great actor, what a great guy.

Alison : And I have to say, my like, you always love him on screen, but after reading your book and and how kind he was, I was amazed at, um, at how much more I love him. And I want to go back and watch his movies now. You know.

Ed: I learned loyalty and kindness from Bruno. I learned a bit of it from my father and from others and different, important people in my life. But I really learned it well from Bruno. He was such a generous person, so kind, so loyal. And I began to try to build those traits in myself and was finally successful.

Alison : You put you in every chapter of your book, you put a spotlight on somebody else. And yet it must be something in you Ed, that brought these people to you. Like, you must be an incredibly kind, generous, warm man…

Ed: Or a hot mess that they thought they might be able to fix? Maybe that. Don’t rule that out. hahah

Alison : I don’t think so. I think there’s something. There’s something in you. What’s your key to having such long term friendships in a business that can be so transient?

Ed: The loyalty I learned from Bruno Kirby and also gratitude. I learned that from many people. Alan Watts among them. To be in the moment, to be right here, present with you two. And it’s delightful to be here in this moment and to be grateful for. I thought it was a big minus for years that my dad was Ed Begley Jr. He was an actor, and I wanted to do what he did. I loved him deeply. I wasn’t aware of how much I loved him until he was gone, but I began to appreciate him down the line, of course. And also I thought, well, that looks easy. I want to do that. Get me on a Gunsmoke, get me a Wagon Train. I want to be on, you know, Perry Mason, get me a series, not just one episode. I want to be regular. Like I could do, what he did. Pick up the phone and do that. Or I could be able to to to deliver. I had taken no training, you know, I think of my father had been a plumber. I’d be fitting pipe now, but he made it look so easy I thought, I can I’ll put the copper kind of together and you heat something, I think. I’m not sure what you do, but I can do that today, Dad, let me drive the truck and go do the job. I had no skills. And finally I took some training and I got better. And I kind of learned while I was doing it. And that was a stroke of good luck. Most people don’t go to get, to learn on the job like that.

Jean: Yeah. You know, and and throughout your book, you mention a few addictions that, that kind of you had to release in your own wonderful way. Can you talk about, um, what really was your turning point to releasing your the addiction to to wanting a drink all the time?

Ed: It was when I had the DTs for the first time, when you experience something like that, it’s fairly certain at that point that you have a problem with drugs and alcohol. And I had hit that point, so I sought out help and I started, i couldn’t do it alone. It was a saying, I can’t, but we can. And I think that’s a very true thing with different addiction drugs, alcohol, philandering, gambling, you name it. So I was having a big problem and I thought, you know, I’ll try this and see how I do, and I started working on a 12 step program, but I had everything going against me. By that, I mean, I hadn’t really lost anything. And so I went after about 21 days, I was thinking, you know, I don’t think I really had the DTs. I think I had food poisoning. I think I ate some funky food that night. That was not the case, of course, I hadn’t eaten any funky food, but I just thought that was it. I had these different reasons. Because I was in my 20s. I was in very good shape physically. So after just 72 hours, after being in the full blown DTs, I go, I feel pretty good. You know, maybe I wasn’t really having the DTs that worked against me and there was a key person in my life. His name was Billy Boyle.

Ed: He used to go to this 12 step meeting on, uh, on Rodeo Drive there in Beverly Hills. And I came in for the fourth or fifth time, bandaged again in some different way from some injury. He’d be there smoking a cigarette, which you could do back then in those meetings. Hey, slim, how you doing? What is this, your fourth or fifth time in here? Billy, would you stop blowing the smoke in my face first of all? But, yeah, I guess I’ve been in here 4 or 5 times. Oh, Christ, you’re never going to get sober. I said, what a terrible thing to say. Why are you being so negative? You’re supposed to encourage people coming through these doors. Billy, why would you say that? Didn’t I hear you got a series over at universal? I said, yeah, I’m doing Battlestar Galactica. You’re married to somebody named Gretchen? No, it’s Ingrid, but yeah, I’m married and two kids, yes, I do. I have a little place in Hancock Park. He said, oh, you’re screwed. Why? Why? There’s all those sound like good things. Is it because you haven’t lost anything? Here’s the way it’s going to work now. From now on, before you take a drink, you’re going to call me up, do you hear me? I’m going to come over there and I’m going to kick your ass. He was about five two, 110 pounds. Maybe I’m 200. Six, four. It’s okay.

Ed: You’re going to come kick my ass, Billy. Thank you. That’s wonderful. And a few months later, I’m at LAX. I’m about to start a movie called, The In-Laws, a big movie with Peter Falk and Alan Arkin. And they open up the bar and I go, I can’t take the pressure. I’m going to drink. And I go, and I order a Bloody Mary. I put it up to my lips and I remember goddamn Billy Boyle, that son of a bitch at that meeting smoking. Okay, there’s no cell phones. Then I go over to the payphone. Billy. Hi, it’s Ed Begley. Why are you calling me so early? I said I’m at LAX. I’m about to fly out to Cuernavaca. This time of year. Give me a call when you get to Mexico, buddy. Oh, Billy, you didn’t hear. Let me finish. I’m about to drink. I heard you call me when you get there. Okay, pal. So what? No. Don’t you understand? Hold on a second. Bartender. Didn’t I just order a Bloody Mary? Yeah. You got to come drink it. Yeah, I’ll be right there. Also, I’m in first class. I can see now. I’m going to drink all the free drinks they give me on the plane. I am going to drink. No you’re not. Yes I am. No you’re not. I said, why am I not going to drink? And he said, because you called me.

Alison : Yeah.

Ed: And then it sunk in. He was right. Because you called me. Said if you wanted to drink, you would have had the drink before you called me. If you wanted to, if you wanted to have the drink, you wouldn’t have gone to that first meeting you went to back in 1976. You don’t want to drink. Like I said, call me when you get to Mexico. And he hung up on me, and I didn’t take that drink. It’s people like him and my friend Brad that have kept me coming back all these many years, and I’m just so lucky to know them both.

Alison : That exact story that LAX story made me cry. That he was so like, okay, call me when you get there. That you had already taken the step without even having known it. Right?

Ed: Exactly. That’s the brilliant thing about that. They tell that to newcomers. You call me before you drink and they do the same thing as me. No, I am. I got it right here. I got it in my hand. I’m going to drink. You can hear glug, glug in a second. No you’re not. And they lay it on you that if you really want it, you would have taken it before you called, you know.

Alison : It’s beautiful.

Ed: It’s mind opening.

Jean: Yeah. So mind opening and It’s so fascinating how powerful the mind is.

Ed: And the group, what the group can accomplish with simple steps of working with, you know, one another and you know other things. People carry resentments around. They just eat you alive and make you want to drink or use or do other things that are addictive,  and when you have that resentment towards somebody else that’s like drinking acid and hoping the other person dies. Yeah. You know. Yeah. You got to let go of that stuff and and move on. And and that’s what I’ve, in most cases been able to do.

Alison : You went through a lot physically and emotionally. Like you were in a body cast and you punctured your lung, like all these things. And I couldn’t even I couldn’t even believe it. How did you how did you heal from all that emotionally? Because it was a lot. And you’ve had, I’m sure, as an actor, like when we look at your career, it looks like, oh, you’re just successful. Like you’re famous and successful. And yet, there were times in this when it looked like you weren’t working. And I’m wondering, how did you how did you deal with disappointment? How did you how did you get through that?

Ed: I drank over it and drank over it until really 1979, when I finally got sober. This time I used those words this time because this time it’s been nearly 45 years.

Alison : Wow. Congratulations.

Ed: But it’s important to note also, I had a year and a month just before that, i had a year and a month with no pills, no pot, no drinking, no nothing. I was sober, going to meeting a day and yet I still drank. Why? Because I didn’t get a sponsor and I didn’t work the steps. You know, I thought I was different, I was special. You don’t understand. I’m busy. I got all these jobs in Mexico and over at universal, I’m not like these other saps. I don’t have time to get a sponsor and work the steps now, so I’ll get to that later. Big shocker, I drank. Yeah. So then finally, when I started doing things the way that others have done them, it has worked nearly 45 years.

Alison : That’s that’s amazing.

Ed: Yeah, it is amazing.

Jean: And you pay such beautiful, heartfelt tribute to Ingrid.

Ed: Wonderful Ingrid. Mother of my two grown kids. Just a wonderful, wonderful, great lady. I’m so lucky to have had her in my life. Yeah, and a great ex-wife, too. She and I became friendly then friends and best friends. And then, like, brother and sister for life. I’m so still to this day, lucky and grateful to have had this wonderful woman in my life.

Alison : And I, we we know your current wife because we saw her at We Spark the other night.

Ed: Rachelle is heaven on earth in so many ways. I love her deeply too, and she’s so great. She was never jealous about Ingrid. She knew that was something from my past that was important because we had two wonderful children together. But Ingrid and Rachelle were not only friends. We took a drive together where they became like best friends because they could unite against a common enemy. Right? hahah- They turned to me big time and we went in the car. This is how foolish I am, how naive I am. I said, sure, we’ll do this. We’ll get in the car with my present wife at the time. This is years ago, but my new wife at that time, Rachelle, in the front seat in the passenger seat and Ingrid is in the back, my ex-wife in the back with my then five year old daughter Hayden in the back. And, uh, there was a they really had we had a few laughs, as I always I’ll say. It was fantastic. And most of the laughs were directed at me.

Alison : Yeah. Well, you I guess you were the easy target.

Ed: Definitely. And I deserved every bit of it. So there was no protesting… But I, oh no… You’re right, didn’t I … No. I’m sorry.

Alison : That’s funny.

Jean: Well, you do have great taste in women.

Ed: That’s for sure.

Jean: And, um, and how you wrote about them is is very touching in your book. I wanted to take a second and talk about your relationship with Cesar Chavez, because that that seemed to be a real linchpin to your passion of being an active environmentalist.

Ed: He was a dear friend. The great Cesar Chavez. For those who do not know, uh, was a great labor leader. He was the head of the United Farm Workers union he formed with Dolores Huerta, who’s still around and I do a lot of work with Dolores Huerta, but he and Dolores found this union and helped the people in the fields who had no one to speak for them. You know, people were dying in the fields back then, dying in the heat as they do. Not as often, but they do still to this day. But they had no water provided for them in the fields. There was no latrines. It was a bad situation. And so I didn’t really know much about this back then. But I had some friends at Valley College, Bill Malloy and Jan Fisher, who turned me on to the United Farm Workers and their plight. So there was a big move, you know, no Uvas, no grapes. And I boycotted grapes, no lechuga, no lettuce. And so we all stopped buying lettuce. But then one day in the 80s, I got to meet him. Cesar Chavez came into a restaurant. I was sitting at having a bowl of oatmeal.

Speaker2: I didn’t think it was him at first, because he got out of a very modest car and I went, you know, that couldn’t be Cesar Chavez. He’s an internationally known labor leader. Then I thought for just one minute I went, no, that’s exactly the kind of car he would be in, because he Cesar Chavez, walked past me to get to his table and I could see it was definitely him. I walked over and I said, Cesar, I don’t want to bother you, but I’ve been supporting from a distance for the years for the strike fund. And I stopped buying lettuce and grapes and what have you. We hit it off and became friendly, and I worked with him on pesticide issues because the people in the fields then were coming home with pesticide residue in their clothes. And really, people didn’t understand how dangerous it was in many cases. And they were getting sick and their kids were getting sick. So I started working with him on those issues and had the sadness and the honor of carrying his coffin through the streets of Delano in 1993.

Alison : I that was it was beautiful. Can you can you tell me a little bit, too, about the environmental activism that you are so like you’re famous for it? I remember watching, Living with Ed.

Ed: Yeah, I started that in 1970 because I grew up in LA. Most people wonder why I did that, why I got involved in 1970. And the answer is easy. Born and raised in LA and the smog was horrible back then. People think the smog  is bad now. It was so bad back then. And we got to remember that as a success story and a blueprint to do other things like defeat climate change. We have four times the cars in LA from 1970, in that first Earth Day. Millions more people. But we have a fraction of the smog. We all did that by cleaner cars, cleaner power plants, all this stuff, big and small that we hoped would work, did work. We have cleaner air now. We still have problems. Air pollution around the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles. Those big ships there and the different equipment that loads and unloads. There’s pollution there, near the freeway interchanges, near the fulfillment centers and all those shipping centers. We need to clean up the air for those people who live and work there. And we’re going to do that because we’ve proven that we can.

Ed: Ozone depletion. We had a problem with the ozone hole where increased  UVB was happening and people in Australia and elsewhere getting more skin cancer than would be considered even remotely normal. And so that we banned CFCs and people, the naysayers said, would never be able to buy a refrigerator again. Never be able to buy an air conditioner. They’ll be too expensive. I’m told you can still buy refrigerators. Somebody said that to me the other day. I was shocked to learn it. You can still buy air conditioning units. I’m told. It just cost pennies more to make the change and ban CFCs than we did it. And it worked. We did that with air pollution and a lot of green businesses that thrived. So we have to think about that as we plan for the future and do more things that we must do regarding climate change and our dependence on foreign oil has a cost and many other ways. And there’s lots of ways we can do that and clean up the air in our cities.

Jean: Ed, can you share like three simple things someone can do right now to lean more green in their life?

Ed: Just do something simple, that doesn’t cost a lot of money and then build from there. Just try some energy efficient light bulbs. That’s number one.  Energy saving thermostat number two. The third one is a category I call get out of your car. Most people can’t afford a fancy electric car like I drive. I couldn’t afford it myself, in 1970 when I started, I bought a cheap, like a golf cart, kind of a car back in 1970. But get out of your car. By that, I mean take public transportation. If it’s available near you, ride a bike, you know, a fitness and weather permit. Do things like that. And also I can’t restrict it to three. I’m going to give you a fourth one, you know, do some home gardening or home composting. If you have a piece of dirt in your front or back yard, get out there and get your hands in the dirt. Get connected to the earth and grow some wonderful food, which I’ve always done since the 70s, since I had a house. You can make your own compost, or the old trash becomes new vegetables in the form of composting table scraps and yard waste and what have you. So get out of your car. Get your hands in the dirt and buy some energy efficient thermostats or lighting.

Alison : That’s totally, that’s totally doable. You have an Leed platinum rated home, though?

Ed: Yes. Leed is basically like a miles per gallon rating for a home or a business. And it’s how efficient your home is, as in how thick the walls are, the envelope of the house, how easy it is to keep in heat or cool and or to keep out heat or cool as well. Uh, you know how efficient the air conditioning units are. Do you have room on your roof for solar? Is there a good sunny roof? Mine is. So I have nine kilowatts of solar on the roof. I have two big four by ten solar panels for hot water… I have a 10,000 gallon rainwater tank. I’ve got a lot of fruits and vegetables. Sorry for that buzzing. The mailman just came.

Alison : Oh. That’s okay.

Ed: Hopefully there’ll be some rerun checks. Yeah.

Alison : That’s right.

Ed: The dogs always seem to get excited. Your Probably hearing the dogs barking in the background too…there  Different things are going on here, but, it’s always great to see the mailman. To hear that ringing you just heard. It’s like occasionally there’s a bill. Yes. Occasionally I have to pay a bill. hahah

Alison : Right, right.

Jean: And Ed , you have developed some Eco friendly products, cleaning products.

Ed: I do. I have a wonderful, uh, pet stain and odor remover. I’ve got a pet, a waterless pet shampoo, you know, to clean your pet if you don’t have an area to, like, clean the dog in a tub or what have you like for that. People live in apartment. Need to clean up their pets. Um, we’ve got a floor soap. We’ve got wonderful, you know, totally non-toxic cleaning products that work very well. They have to not only be nontoxic, but they have to clean. People are going to buy it once if it doesn’t do the job of some other, you know, less, you know, safe product.

Jean: Just, just just on on the cleaning. I think it’s so important to have a natural cleaning product for your floor because my dog licks my floor, floor everywhere and…

Ed: All the time.

Jean: All the time. My little Buddy is always he’s like a little Roomba around the house and he’s always licking. So how great it is to know that my floors are not, um, poisonous, and also like little children crawling on the floor.

Ed: Exactly. Little kids crawling on the floor. If you have kids or grandkids that are little, they’re always putting their toes and their fingers in their mouth and they’re crawling the floor. So I’ve been out there with many people protesting a hazardous waste site that they’re sighted or have sighted near their home. And I say to them, we’re going to try to fix this. But before you do that, let’s get the hazardous waste site that’s in your home. Huh? What do you mean? I said. Under your sink. You’ve probably got a lot of toxic products. Get rid of them and stop. You don’t want one near your home. You definitely don’t want one in your home. Get rid of that stuff and stop using it.

Alison : Yeah, that’s great. What do you think of this idea of the car free Olympics coming up in L.A.?

Ed: Yeah, I think it’s great. I think it’s great to commit to that. I think they can do it. There’ll be other people in cars, but they’re going to try to get as much of the Olympic teams and all the support people, all the people involved with the games themselves to be taking public transportation. They’re they’re different, you know, green, uh, vans and what have you. But, you know, bike lanes and, uh, a lot more public transportation. They’re going to have the connection to LAX finished by then. Other different connectors that connect different lines, subway and rail and other light rail and bus, all of it’s going to be better connected by the time the Olympics come. I think it’s a great goal to make it car free.

Alison : Yeah, we see you biking all the time. We both live in Studio City and we see you biking all the time. Do you still not get into a gas car?

Ed: I haven’t been in a gas car in a while. I have now a long range electric car that I can drive across country, and I have, uh. So. But I’m on my bike every day for errands. I ride my bike. Still, I have a transportation hierarchy, if you will. Number one is walking. I like to walk. Get to where I need to go. Bike is number two, public transportation. Number three, the electric car that I’m known for, that’s a distant fourth. And I used to have a fifth choice, which would be, you know, a hybrid car. But I don’t need that anymore because I have a pure electric that can go nearly 400 miles on a charge so I can drive cross country easy.

Alison : That’s excellent. Right, right. It’s perfect.

Jean: Well, we’ve both waved to you. I’ve waved to you many times when I’ve seen you on your bike. And I’ve stop at the light, and I’ve seen you, like, crossing from, Carpenter school and.

Ed: Yes.  I’ll definitely wave back now. It’s good to see your face and be reminded.

Alison : That’s right.

Ed: Lovely lady. It’s so great to see you, Jean….both of you..

Alison : Could you tell me, what the governor of the Academy Awards is?

Ed: Yeah. They decided years ago that the membership comprised of the different branches actors, directors, writers, costume designers, you know, makeup and hair people. Everybody should have a branch consisting of three people. For most branches that would then rotate, there would be an election every year, and one of the three would be up for election after having served three years, they would decide who would host the Oscars with the staff, you know, suggestion, the staff is very much staff driven in many ways. They bring different suggestions for people for the governor’s award and people vote on it. But the the governors themselves vote for who should get the governor’s award each year? Who should vote to host the Oscars? Who should get in? There’s a committee that starts it, then the governors approve it. But most of the most important thing that they do is this though– preservation and celebration of the excellence in motion pictures. Excellence and sound. Excellence in cinematography. Excellence in acting. That is the role of the Academy in a simple sense, to promote excellence in motion pictures. That’s what they do very well with the Nicholl Fellowship and other, you know, different writing fellowships and what have you different ways. They started great filmmakers that we know, Spike Lee and, you know, different people that we know that have done very well and done incredible films started George Lucas, I think, started with the Nicholl Fellowship. People like that got these great grants from the Motion Picture Academy to start and to do decades and decades of wonderful work. So that’s what they do. They promote excellence in motion pictures and the governors guide that. And I was very proud to serve what is now a term limit. They didn’t have term limits before, but it’s good that they do I think. And I served a full 15 years and how lucky I am to serve in that role.

Alison : Wow. And everybody loves you, Ed.

Ed: Don’t tell them what I’m really like. I’m begging you.  Well, Jean knows–her husband caught me stealing olives. I’m a thief.

Jean: I think he actually loved to use that story. And you know who comes over and steals olives from our front lawn,

Alison : Right? That’s right.

Ed: I saw him a few times after that olive theft, and he was always very funny. He gave me a good ribbing.

Jean: Well, he enjoyed you equally.

Ed: I Loved him.

Alison : Yes, he was great.

Jean: This was such a treat. And wherever Brad is, him bringing you to our humble podcast, we’re so grateful to both of you.

Ed:  I feel the same.

Alison :  Could you answer three quick final questions. The first thing is, you have known you huge celebrities that are funny, what makes you laugh?

Ed: I’ll tell you what makes me laugh. And there’s several people that are able to do this. People like Charles Grodin and Dabney Coleman, who were very dear friends, and Peter Falk and Alan Arkin, all four. What’s in common? Each of those guys, when they did comedy and they did it often, they did it like they were doing Strindberg. They never, ever did it, like, okay, we’re going to we’re in a comedy here, and this, this is going to be funny. They played it like they’re doing Shakespeare. And that’s what made it great. Oh the  dogs came in. They just wanted to hear some tips to. I’m sorry.

Jean: We love dogs.

Alison : We Love it. Can we–Is your dog right there?

Ed: Would you open the door and let him in, Brad?

Ed: Oh, she’s got them taken care of. I think Rochelle just came home and took care of the dogs that have been barking the whole show, and now she’s. I think they’re happy to see Brad. Just takes a minute to remember him. Bunny, come. Oh, no. You got Bunny right there. I want you to show you- my daughter found this dog at a tow yard. Her car got impounded. And this is what I got out of the deal.

Alison : Oh, my.

Ed: She sleeps on top of me every night. She’s heaven on earth. She was a little black terrier then, because she was so dirty from the oil and soot and the tow yard. Nobody knows how she got there. She had no chip, she had no collar. And she came to me, and she just sat on top of me right away. And she never wanted to leave my side. Dogs know.

Jean: They do know.

Ed: She. She’s so jealous. She’s yelling at Ducky. Who’s getting some attention over there from Brad and Rochelle. But now Ducky is gone and Bunny will be good again.

Alison : Oh my gosh, he looks like a movie dog. He’s so cute.

Ed: He is. Oh, she’s adorable beyond words. She sleeps in my stomach every night.

Ed: This is for me, honey?  Yeah. thank you. She said this is all the mail I get, I won’t reveal. Hopefully it’s not a summons. I hope I haven’t just been served.

Alison : And could you also tell us, what are you. You’re making me laugh… What do you think insidewink means?

Ed: Inside what?

Alison : Inside wink.

Jean: Help him out.

Alison : Help him. Brad.

Brad: This place is insanity all day long. It doesn’t matter what time you come here. It’s the same vibe and the same banter all day.

Jean: It’s life in full session.

Alison : We love it.

Ed: Say it one more time.

Ed: Oh, Insidewink. That means you got the inside knowledge. The things that most people don’t get. You don’t get the information that most people get. Is that what it is?

Alison : Yes, that’s exactly what it is.

Jean: Perfect.

Alison : That’s perfect. Very good. Editor. And finally, pie, cake or ice cream. And of course, vegan for you.

Ed: Pie,  I love pie.

Alison : Really?

Ed: Can it be…Gluten free too? Is that possible?

Alison : Yeah. What kind of pie?

Ed: I love key lime pie. Oh, but I love apple. And I love pumpkin, I love pecan. There’s lots of pies. I love any berry pie.

Alison :  All right, we know now. Excellent. That’s it. We love you. And thank you so much for doing this for us.

Ed: And you put up with the hounds of hell. So I know I love you guys. You’re very sweet. Thank you. I’m sorry. Hopefully you can hear three words I said through the dogs barking, but they’re little love dogs.

Alison : It’s a perfect interview.

Jean: It really is.

Ed: And same with you guys.

Jean: You’re So wonderful, you and your gorgeous family. So thank you so much, Ed.

Ed: I send you love and light and I hope to see you again on Laurel Canyon or anywhere.

Alison : Us too. Great. Thank you. And have a beautiful day.

Ed: You too. Thank you. Bye.

Alison : Bye.

Jean: Bye.

Jean: Because you can be sneaky.

Alison : I’m never sneaky.

Jean: Okay, that’s actually true.

Alison : I’m never sneaky. I’m very out there with stuff.

Jean: I might be projecting. hahah

Alison : You can be sneaky. What did you think of Ed?

Jean: Okay. This guy is awesome.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean: Yeah, I can see why he has so many friends and why he’s such a great friend. And it always reminds me of if you spot it, you got it. So when he recognizes all that great goodness within all these people that he’s had encounters, encounters with throughout his life, he he owns those qualities as well.

Alison : And you read this book and he really highlights all these wonderful people and talks about how great they are. And then as you’re reading, you realize you (Ed) must be great. Yeah. Like he’s so self-effacing and humble.

Jean: So humble .

Alison : It’s really just… And he’s so funny. And he’s got such a sweet quality to him.

Jean: Right. You know, and he does. You know, I also appreciated the fact that he, um, he’s not perfect, you know, and he will share things that he, you know, aren’t deemed to be highly noble. And then we get a chance to laugh at the human experience and, and the important things in life,  he’s totally nailed.

Alison : Yeah, exactly. What do you think the most important things in life are?

Jean: I do think gratitude. Gratitude and being kind. Going out of your way for someone else. Um. Honesty. Community, community, the all of those things. And. Yeah. How about you?

Alison : Well, just now, after these, after we do these interviews, I’m always struck by the fact that people are beautiful. Like like people that are really trying to do some good, really are such beautiful beings. And you just talk to them and you realize we’re all really kind of alike. And I just, i just love that I feel so good after talking to him.

Jean: Right, yeah. Me too. That was so special. And gosh, I hope you all enjoy that. And please do pick up his book because you will laugh so hard.

Alison : The third sentence is going to make you laugh —

Jean:  the title makes me laugh.

Alison : Me too, me too. To the Temple of Tranquility, and step on it.

Jean: And one last thing. This photo of Ed Begley Jr. and what do you think? He’s about 20 there?

Alison : I don’tknow. He’s such a cutie.

Jean: He’s got so much light and, like, looking forward to life. Like, what is life all about? Like, he’s got that sense of that wonder. Look in his eye, and then you turn. And then on the other side, there’s a photo of him.

Alison : And don’t you think he still has it?

Jean: Oh, just how he’s just grown into to be this, this brilliant adult human being. Yeah.

Alison : Yeah. It’s beautiful.

Jean: And still has the wonder.

Alison : That’s right. Yeah. Well. Thank you. I hope you have a great day, and we’ll talk to you soon. Bye.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Hey everybody! If you enjoy the inspiring conversations on Inside Wink, you were going to love the Good Mood Revolution podcast. It’s hosted by happiness expert Matt O’Neill, and the Good Mood Revolution combines laughter, positivity and key insights to help you navigate life’s challenges with a smile.

Jean: Each episode dives into the art of conscious happiness, offering fun and practical tips to boost your mood. Matt chats with leading experts to share their amazing stories and clever techniques for staying positive, even when life gets tough.

Alison: So whether you’re looking to overcome challenges, add more joy to your life, or you just want another good reason to smile, Good Mood Revolution has you covered. So catch it on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your best mood is one podcast away!

Jean: It is.

Alison: Hi, Jean.

Jean: Hi, Alison.

Alison: Okay, so you had something exciting yesterday, didn’t you?

Jean: Yeah. My, uh… I like your teeth, Alison.

Alison: Do you? We both wearing Invisalign, so we always are looking at each other’s teeth. Yours look good, too.

Jean: And I’m staring right at your mouth. And your teeth look beautiful.

Alison: Okay, but tell us about the stamp.

Jean: Alex was given the title of a Forever stamp, and it was such a beautiful event yesterday. It was held at Sony Studios, and Matthew and Emily and Nikki were there, uh, with their significant others. And it was a beautiful tribute to the life of of Alex.

Alison: I love that. And you had a speech that you did.

Jean: I did, with your help. You helped me fine tune it. Thank you. Allison.

Alison: I wished I had been there. I bet you were great.

Jean: I don’t know if I was great. I got, you know, I get nervous in the beginning. Public speaking is really not my thing. But although I do do it. But I felt a little bit better as the speech went on and definitely reading from my speech, when I go off tangent and try to improvise and sound funny, I lose it. So I got to stick to my speech and there it is.

Alison: Right.. And then you feel good and confident.

Jean: And then I look for the glass of wine.

Alison: Right.. Exactly, exactly. Well, that’s exciting though, Jean. It’s very exciting.

Jean: It’s was a really distinctive honor for Alex.

Alison: Yeah. Um, who would have thought a stamp?

Jean: I know.

Alison: It’s very, it’s interesting. Um, and I’m going to buy them and use them on all my letters. Jean, I’m going to think of you all the time when i mail a letter.

Jean: Well, think of Alex.

Alison: Yeah, well, I do think he’s on my. He’s on my refrigerator um, so today we’re having a great talk with Nancy Allen and Marlene McGirt from We Spark.

Jean: Yes. And you’re friends with Marlene? right?

Alison: Yeah, because our children went to high school together.

Jean: Right. And and I feel so honored to be part of knowing this, this amazing organization. Um, it was founded by Wendie Jo Sperber.

Alison: That’s right. A really great actress. And it started in 2001. And, um. Oh, you’re being honored by them in September.

Jean: I am.

Alison: That’s right. Yeah, I love that. Um, so let’s listen because they have a they’re a great organization that is a cancer support organization and really helps friends, families.

Jean: It’s a very holistic healing center.

Alison: Yes. It’s great. So let’s listen to them okay?

Jean: Yes.

Alison: Okay, good.

Alison: Thank you guys so much for coming i i’m so flattered to do it.

Alison: It’s unbelievable. So let’s talk a little bit about Westpark and how it began and what its mission is and its goals, because it’s such a great organization.

Nancy: Well, thanks for having us here today. Uh, and, uh, And to talk about we spark. Um, Wendie Jo Sperber is an actress, uh, back in the 70s and 80s and 90s, and she was diagnosed with breast cancer, and she was 47 years old. Uh, she had two young children, and, uh, she lived in the valley. And she realized there was really no place for her to go outside of a hospital setting to meet other women in, uh, support groups there, or drive all the way out to the west side, where at that time the wellness community was really the gold standard. And so she said, uh, no, we’re going to open something in the valley, and it’s not going to just be for the cancer patients because it affects your families, your children, your friends, your whole community. And it’s going to be free for everybody. And she was told, oh, no, no, you absolutely can’t do that. But, Wendy, uh, being Wendy is not someone that understood the word no. And so she really single handedly spearheaded, with a help, a huge amount of the community, the entertainment community really showed up and did their first, golf tournament, first fundraiser. And in 2001, um, I got a call from Wendy and she said, I’m opening this center. I found a place and you need to help me. And I said, well, okay. I mean, I don’t know what she’s no, you’re going to be the creative program director. And I thought, well, what on earth is that? And she said, oh, you know, you’re into all that woowoo stuff, all that stuff that’s good for healing.

Nancy: And so on March 1st of 2001, we opened our doors in Sherman Oaks. We had one cancer support group, one group for caregivers called hugs. Wendy liked acronyms, helping others gain strength, and of course, a game night because she liked games. And, um, I taught a yoga class, a restorative yoga class, and that was the beginning. And, um, and from there, it just developed. And our mission basically is to help. We’re dedicated to, um. Oh, my God. I’m blanking on the mission dedicated to enriching the lives of cancer patients and their families and friends. All the services are free, and all the services help with the emotional and physical side effects of a cancer diagnosis. And for any of you which I know most people have been through either themselves or family member or friend, the it’s tough. It’s really a tough recovery process. So, um, at the end of the first year, we were so excited. We had one program at least every day, and now I think we have about 40 programs a week, so it’s been an incredible journey. Sadly, we did lose Wendy in our third year. Fourth year, I guess it was. And but the, uh, the mission thrives and the organization is thriving and, um, really proud to have been asked to participate in it.

Alison: You probably thought you were just going to go there, like for I’ll just go like once or twice. And now you’re the executive director, right?

Nancy: Go figure, I told her, I said, well, I had a few hours a week, but, you know, it was life transformative for me. And I was really looking for that. I mean, I’d been, you know, acting since I was 15 years old. And at this point I was 50. So do the math. But anyway, um, I just didn’t have I just didn’t have, I don’t know, life happened. My father had cancer. I’d lost my two brothers, uh, seven months apart. And it just didn’t hold. It wasn’t holding the magic for me, you know? Uh, and so this was an opportunity, really, to continue a journey that I didn’t even realize that I had been on for a long time, which is, you know, investing myself and my being in meditation and yoga and, you know, other modalities that was about, you know, healing my being as opposed to getting the outside stuff, which I thought was what was going to fix me.

Jean: Yeah. That’s interesting. That’s so beautifully said. Nancy and I and I think that’s what’s so important We Spark is that you’re a holistic organization. You address all parts of our being as spiritual, mental, physical and um, having been through, you know, the the journey of having  beloved Alex have cancer and everything, it it is a two by four when you get that diagnosis. It it it’s just like a a tidal wave that comes into your life. And one of the things that I love about your organization and specifically just going to your website, is you say there’s a tab that says Begin here. Yeah. And that’s what you need because you have so much information thrown at you. Plus your brain is just it’s it’s like out there. You don’t you can’t even understand what the journey you’ve stepped into. So you you have this. Just begin here. Push this button and we you fill out a welcome form. Someone’s going to call you, and we will help, um, navigate you to where we can offer you your, your best support. And I love that. So so thank you.

Nancy: Thank you you for that.

Jean: I just wanted to say that because there’s so much involved, it is a different land. You are in a different country when you get a cancer diagnosis.

Nancy: Yeah. Well, your your life is paused as you know it. And now you are in-  set up this appointment, set up that appointment, meet this doctor and have this scan. Get these results. Oh my God, how long do we have to wait to find out what the pathology of the tumor is? I mean, it is it is an ongoing siege. Like going, like literally going to war, you know, and, um, and of course, everything is on…. Everything else is on hold. So, um, it’s certainly really helpful to have to have the opportunity to share with other people what’s going on with you, other cancer patients, other family members. And I just, you know, want to mention it’s always interesting when a couple comes in, um, whoever looks at the best is the cancer patient. Whoever looks like looks like everything’s coming apart at the seams. It’s the caregiver because everything’s going into taking care of the patient. So, you know, they we always say, please, let us take care of you, while you take care of them, because, you know, it’s a big deal for a caregiver to say, you know, I’m just going to for an hour and a half, I’m going to go and I’m going to go to my group and oh, my God, is it okay to leave this person? Is it, you know, any of that stuff? But it’s so important to self-care is essential whether you’re the patient or the caregiver, or the family member or the child, to really have that space and have someone hold that space to make sure that your emotional needs are getting, that you have a place to download because you don’t want to tell the cancer patient, oh my God, I’m so terrified. You don’t want to do that, right? Someplace else to say that, you know? Uh, so anyway, I yeah, I have such admiration for you, Jean, and what you went through, it’s really quite extraordinary. Living out loud. You did it.

Alison: That’s right. It was. And being in the public eye and going through it is a whole, you know… Marlene, how did you get involved in Westpark? Because you’re you’re from a different background, huh?

Marlene: No, I’ve been a a professional fundraiser for over 25 years.

Alison: I meant not an actress.

Marlene: OHH, I’m not an actress…I may look like one.  hahah–just kidding.  It’s not my thing, but I always like, um. Yeah, I just, I, I came from Chicago, so I was a fundraiser then. And then, um, my family and I, um, moved to Los Angeles and, um, and I continued and I tried to do the producing thing for a little while, and, and, um, but I was still consulting. And then I started working with the Alliance for Children’s Rights, which for a little over six years. And I did that, and my kids were growing up, and then they went into high school and, and then I, Nancy, have known she we’ve been friends for a long time. And we would have lunch and I would consult with her because there was no real development department. And then she became the executive director. And, so we would talk, we would have lunches. And she goes, oh, I want to hire you. One day I’ll find the money. And then so one day she found the money and she, we met for lunch or something… I’d like to,  can hire you?

Nancy: and I’m thinking, what would it take to get you to jump ship? What would it take?

Alison: I love that, yeah.

Marlene: So you know, it was interesting, I was at the Alliance is a non-profit law firm. So it was a big budget, very, you know, high powered, dealing with a lot of entertainment people and, you know, support and I loved it, I loved it. But when Nancy’s ,when there was the opportunity with Nancy and I got to talk with her, I, um, decided it was a good time because it was close to home. And, um, I loved the mission. And then I remember her giving me a tour, and I walked the old place. You saw the old place? Um, Allison? And it was very homey. And, you know, I had to go into, like, first gear because it was so quiet. Very beautiful and centering and almost mystical. And I’m almost getting chills because I remember walking through the little halls, and then I saw a couch in one of the support group room. I went, ooh, if I worked here, maybe I could take a nap. It’s been ten years. I’ve never taken a nap.  It was just such a cool environment. And, I’ve been here for, you know, since 2014. You know, it’ll be ten years in August. And it’s been really a joy to work with Nancy and see her commitment to the organization. And the board of directors  are great. And then the guests, oh my God, I see, you know, I see them come in like a deer in headlights. And then I see them like laughing and meeting people in the community, that happens here is amazing, you know, and um, and so and the work it’s,  I remember we used to be called the woo woo and now we’re the go to, you know, and uh, and it’s, it’s been really great. And so, you know,  the guests are the ones who keep me coming back and the work is always challenging. And, um, because of the climate and whatever, it’s, you know, people say, how do you fundraise? You know, that’d be so hard. You know, they said, well, you know, I don’t beg people for money. I just give people the opportunity to be of service. If it’s not with us, it’ll be with, you know, hopefully you’re supporting something because it makes you feel good. And I get to see the best in people. I got to tell you, I really do. And then Allison, I met you at in, you know, in grade school, you know, when the kids were going to grade school and and you are so of service. I remember you were the volunteer for everything and and you were just so inspiring and, and I remember I had to go back to work full time. So I was volunteering and then I couldn’t do it anymore as a single mom. And then I remember you just continued. And then we went to high school and then Maxwell, my son, and I went to high school. I saw Allison, I went through, I hit the jackpot. I said I got the most committed person to her children and to others children.

Alison: Oh, you’re so sweet. You know, it’s so interesting when we talk about giving back to others, right? And how that can make you feel like you could you could definitely look at someone like you, Nancy, and say, oh, you had it all. You were in all these movies and you were the star and the celebrity. And yet I feel like you’re saying that really coming into your own on this journey about giving it out and being of service. Like, why do you think that? Why do you think that touches the human soul so deeply? What is it about being of service that is really our connective tissue. From your own personal view, what do you think?

Nancy: Wel…I really think I think it’s one of the big secrets in life. You know, we start out and we’re trying to get all this stuff, and we’re going to get it and we’re going to be happy, and it’s all going to be great. And the big secret is, the more I give, the better I feel. Yeah, the more I help you, the better I feel. It’s somehow much more fulfilling. You know, we’re provided for. Everything we need comes around us and we’re taken care of. But to be able to listen to someone, it’s the greatest gift. Just really be present. Witness someone’s life, whatever witness they’re passing, hold their hand, whatever it is. And I think that’s I mean, I think that’s the real juice in life. I mean, it’s we’re designed we’re here together. We’re not on an island by ourselves. We’re here together, and together we can do a lot of things to support and help one another. And, uh, I love it. I love, um, I love the feeling. And I’m greedy for that. Now. Now I’m greedy for that feeling. Can I just, i just want to mention, since you talked about Marlene joining, and one of the things that I like to have all the staff do is experience the services so they can literally, from their experience, be able to articulate what it’s about, you know, go in and have a Reiki session, uh, reflexology session? Uh, one of the classes. Go on and listen to the group. So so they can really experience and not just be in their office… There aren’t as many people that come on a daily basis since the pandemic. There’s a lot of things are still virtual, but still it’s really important to not just be there saying, oh yeah, it’s great. It’s so great, and you should try it. No, really be able to say it, it moved me. Yeah, or it relaxed me or I laughed or, you know, whatever it is. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that.

Jean: Yeah. Me too. And I think that’s so important, sharing your direct experience. Because then, then your words really have some meat to them and uh and I think that’s what we all want. Can you share some of the programs that there are available, there are so many great programs you offer? Can you give a list of some of your favorites?

Alison: Yeah, I was going to say, Marlene, what was your favorite since you got to do it all?

Marlene: Well, I call it the perk of working at We Spark.  Well, I think, you know, reflexology has always been really… I love massages, reflexology, which is so calming and comfortable, but I didn’t know anything about Reiki or qigong. and that was like, wow, that was… I had a little bit in Chicago. I did the Reiki, but but we have such we have like Reiki masters here and it was so centering and and so slight and so all I remember is waking up feeling so, not even waking up like-  like coming out of a trance like and feeling so relaxed and centered and my stresses, like my mind stopped working and I stopped thinking, you know, it was so meditative and beautiful. And I felt taken care of, you know, it was interesting, it was just-  I love it. And I can see when the, when our guests come out of the rooms, you know, our individual rooms, they’re like blissed out and I  go sit down for a minute, here’s some water.

Alison: That’s right. What about you, Nancy? What is something that you really love?

Nancy: Well, I’ll just say the anchor. The beginning anchor, of course, are the support groups. Right. So that’s their, um, movement. Tai chi, yoga, very important for physical recovery and for relaxation. Um, I love the individual appointments. I love paint and play as a new favorite. I mean, it’s just fabulous.. jewelry making, all of the creative things. Lectures are great…All of that’s great for me, um, I love, love hypnotherapy. I love the mind, body connection for me is powerful. And, um, you know, it started with meditation. We’ve had certainly different kinds of meditation classes, but I remember hearing a young lady, she was 20… I don’t know, 24 years old, healthy, athletic, lived and did everything right. And she said, how did I end up with breast cancer? And she was so distraught and she was getting ready for surgery. And imagine being that age and having to go through a double mastectomy. So she has every right to be terrified. And, um, I remember seeing her after her surgery. I saw her before, and then she had whatever session she had after her surgery. She was so happy. She said, you know, I’m so grateful there was a cancellation. And I got in to go to hypnotherapy to prepare her for her surgery, to the point where she went in there. She said,  I felt safe, I felt centered. Wow. Um, I think they were looking to see if… she said, I think they were looking to see if I was on some sort of medication, you know?

Nancy: And I never, ever, ever forgot that. And, um, you know, sometime after that, I, I tried it for something very specific, and I found it to be life transformative. Of course, one has to have just a tiny bit of an open mind. Just a little bit. You don’t have to be clever, but just say it’s possible. And I do think that that is a very powerful, uh, modality. And I think they all can be, because generally when you’re doing those one on ones, you’re kind of transported, you’re emotionally, mentally and emotionally transported. And it’s almost not that you’re leaving your body. I want to get to woo woo, but it’s your mind almost is suspended into the possibilities, you know? So I love all that stuff.

Alison: Oh that’s fantastic.

Jean: And  Nancy, I love that you shared about your,  the support groups that we spark offers. And something that I noticed which was so great, is that not only for men and teens, because women, we have our girlfriends, But you also have something called solo, for people that that don’t have family or friends. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Nancy: Oh yeah, I love that program. And it’s a very, very, uh, it is a really thriving and popular class group. Uh, there was a number of years ago, there was a young she was probably, you know, late 30s, uh, maybe 40 years old, a therapist who was a cancer survivor, breast cancer survivor. And she said, what I’m seeing, what I’m hearing and what I experienced is there are a lot of people who are going through this alone. Not that they don’t have anyone who loved them, but maybe their families live far away. Maybe they live alone and whatever it was, or maybe they were isolated in some way. So she said, I think there’s something there. Well, I’ve got to tell. I said, I don’t know, I don’t know. Right from the get go. That group just populated with people and from young to old. And it is a very powerful and wonderful, wonderful group. And, um, I, I love it, and I’m so grateful to her. Unfortunately, you know, that now is part of her legacy. She had a rediagnosis and passed a number of years later, but boy, it’s a exceptionally popular group.

Marlene: And people who have moved on from the group, there’s they still come in volunteer in groups, you know, there’s like Jane and Mary and they’re still hanging out together and they’re still very, very close.

Nancy: You see that a lot in the in the grief groups, very much so. They get, they bond and support one another. And um, well, we did have one wedding out of one of the groups. hahah

Alison:  I love that.

Nancy: I know it was really funny when one of the facilitators, uh, check ins or clinical check in. Apparently there was a gentleman who was the widower, and one of the ladies really took offense that he was dating so short a short time after his wife died, and she just went on and on. It’s disgraceful. Anyway, don’t you know they ended up together? I just thought that was just sort of a sweet story.

Alison: Love that. That’s so funny.

Nancy: But the relationships, the bonds that people form, you know, you go through something like cancer, it really bonds you…it’s a shortcut., It’s a shortcut language. It’s like you hear them laughing. They’ll mention something. Oh yeah. Laugh about their doctor. Oh, can you believe they said this? Or, you know, or cry together and you know and then survive. Uh, it’s it’s amazing. Truly amazing. And they’re definitely the inspiration of the organization.

Alison: I think it’s amazing that I know, we all know people that have had a cancer diagnosis. And I think I see that it’s hard. We live in a world that it’s hard for people to ask for help. It’s hard for people to be vulnerable and say, I need some help. And I think that’s what’s so great about you, because someone can just walk in the door, I bet, and not even say anything and get and get help. How do you how do you bridge that? Because I think sometimes people…  my friend has cancer right now. And I’ll say, you know, what do you need? And I realize they’re really not going to tell me, you know, I have to sort of be active. Do you know what I mean?

Nancy: Totally. Totally. No. I mean, I myself was raised to believe, to never ask for help, that I should be completely independent and never need anything from anybody. Right. So there is that mentality hopefully with the younger generations is changing, but,  it is not uncommon for someone to send in their forms or pick up the phone and say, I’ve been trying to do this for three months, i’ve been trying to do and and it’s it makes me so sad because it’s such a lonely place to have that diagnosis and to not get that helping hand and And but once they do, once they walk through the door, I mean outreach is key for us going to health fairs, you know, putting things out on the internet to talking one person to the other. I always keep cards or, uh, pamphlets in my car. So because you never know. Right. And I always give that card to people and say, I hope you never need this or anyone you know never did. But if they do, please, it’s very hard to give away free services. I hate to say it, but it really is. There’s there’s a lot of skepticism, really..what’s the catch? You know, there is no catch, you know, and we just want to be here for you. And it’s a it’s a beautiful thing when people come in and they you can see them exhale probably for the first time in however long they’ve been diagnosed, you know.

Jean: Right. so so obviously to offer all of these beautiful free services you need to fundraise. And so back to you, Marlene. What are your fundraisers? What are your events that you’re, um, putting out there so that our listeners can can join.

Marlene: We have a development mix. Mix. We we get grant money. We have major gifts. We have appeals that go out twice a year. Um, people love to give in honor and in memory of people. So that’s the straight gifts, you know. And then we have the fundraisers and then like, as you know, we have the drag queen bingo happening next Tuesday. I’m so happy you guys are going to be there. It’s a full house booked, and you know because in Nancy’s background we did we called it a Carrie reunion. I think I sent you the invitation. Carrie reunion… I don’t know, I sent that out, and we kind of doubled what we had anticipated for that day.

Nancy: And so, i think Billy Katt was the draw because my name is was last year and it didn’t get sold out.

Marlene: I always liked to see Nancy… And then, of course, our comedy event is our biggest fundraiser of the year, and we are so excited that we are able to honor you, Jean with the heart of We Spark Award. It’s so sweet and you’re just the you embody that what that this award is all about. And so you know, or you know, we’re hoping to raise $210,000. That’s our budgeted goal. And then plus I have my own goal in mind, um, for what we want, it’s usually more than what we budgeted for. But it’s such a fun event you guys are having going to have a great, great time. You know.

Jean: I’m so honored. That is an understatement. I’m so honored to be number one, just part of your stunning organization. My family and I, we will be there because we we have a direct experience with with cancer. And I want to say something that, um, Wendie Jo Sperber, I heard her say this on an interview. She says, you know, we’re living with cancer. It’s it’s not about pushing it away, you know, it’s how to more embrace it, you know, and and yes, we all hope and know that cancer absolutely can go into remission. And that’s wonderful. But it is… We are living with these situations in life that we know we don’t, we don’t say sign me up for this like we don’t think we do. But it’s part of our growth. And I know how it it’s a hard way to grow, but it does seem like that is on planet Earth, that we we are given a situation that we we need to embrace and change our perspective over and again, you know, and hopefully for the most part, for, I mean, I hope your organization doesn’t need to exist in many years, you know, but right now, we are so grateful you are here And, um, but I’m also a champion that we’re going to dissolve this, this cancer that that is taking lives of our loved ones.

Nancy: Well, Wendy’s Prayer used to be, I just want to say this Wendy’s prayer used to say she’d say, please put us out of business.

Alison: Yeah.

Marlene: Right. Exactly. Jean.

Marlene: Jean, you’re doing your part, you know, in what you did with the pancreatic cancer fund for stand up for cancer. So thank you for what you’re doing with research. And, um, and, uh, that effort and raising awareness.

Jean: Well, yes, I’m happy that I can contribute and I, I just want to say to all the listeners that cancer really is making great strides, the healing of cancer, the treatments. There’s so much more available than when Wendy, your founder, was around.

Alison: And to know that there are people like you guys that are really taking a different approach because when my family members had cancer, it was all very clinical and very harsh, and you felt like you were like, uh, go to this room, go to like it just felt very impersonal sometimes. And then when I walked into your space, I feel like I’m at home.

Jean: It’s the antithesis of going to the chemo place or your… It’s not clinical. It’s not medical. Like Allison said, it is very personal, homey and loving sanctuary and like to your what you also said Nancy you can exhale it’s like ah.

Nancy: Ah but to your and to your point, I just want to say that there has been so much progress made… It isn’t a one size fits all anymore. It used to be, oh, this is your diagnosis. This is what you’re going to get. Oh, you have to get radiation. We’re just going to blast you. They’re targeted approaches, you know, they can diagnose much earlier. Screenings are so important. Please, ladies, please get breast cancer screenings. Please, everyone do your colonoscopies. Because these are things that can save lives, you know. Yes, they see more, but they’re diagnosing early now. So this is a really great thing. And um, immunotherapy there’s there’s just, there’s  always progress. And I also would like to say I mean, we’re not a medical facility, but truly do your homework. Do your homework about your doctors– like you were going to marry them. You know what I mean? Find out who they are, where they come from, where they went to school, what their history is. And, you know, I just think that kind of– it’s a empower yourself to ask questions and not just to say, okay, whatever you want to do to me, do it. No. Ask questions. Do the homework. I think it’s very important.

Alison: So I think that’s true for most anything in life, you know?

Nancy: Agreed.

Alison: Know what you’re know what you’re stepping into. And, um, you know, be be your own advocate.

Jean: Yeah. Wendy says that on that interview. She says, be proactive. Don’t give your power away to some guru or some doctor that you’re just, oh, you know, tell me… put anything into me and everything. Ask questions and be curious.

Nancy: She was always very funny. I hate to say this, but every time we went, I used to go on her appointments with her. We would walk out of there laughing. I mean, not crying, but laughing. We went to see they were going to, uh.. For those of the listeners who don’t know, if you’re going to have extensive chemo and things like that, a lot of times they use a port so that there’s like an easy way to just so you’re not stuck with needles all the time- anyway. So she finally got to the point where she said, okay, I think I’m going to consider it. So we went and she was going to the best of the best, and we went in and this man comes in, this doctor and he says, uh, are you the patient? I’m the plumber. And then he starts to say, well, here’s what we do. Da da da da da da da. And she said, excuse me, do you like your job?

Nancy: And it literally time stopped for him. You know what to say, what to do. We ended up leaving there and she said to me. Yeah, I’m never seeing him again. You know what I mean? It was like his bedside, but I just thought, you know, you have to. It’s so crazy, some of it. You have to laugh… If you don’t laugh, I don’t know, it’s such an important part of life, you know, getting through anything.

Alison: Totally agree. Just try to, you know…I walked through cancer with a very good friend of mine, and we’d go to these doctor’s offices, and we made a plan. I guess I shouldn’t really say this, but at every doctor’s appointment, I stole a stethoscope…no Um, like one of those tongue depressors, uh, and every place. And we dated, and we would just laugh because I’d have to sneak it, and and it was sick. And we had this all these tongue depressors and cotton balls and just these things that I had that I had pinched from these places just to make her laugh. And we would we’d be hysterically laughing. And at one point in one of the last ones, I said, do you think I could get away with a gown like one of these? And she’s like, no, no, because, you know, it just– you have to just connect in a more, in your own way, like your own normal human way. So, Marlene, if we go to your website, we’ll be able to see how to donate or even how to get involved. And is that just we spark.com?

Marlene: It’s wespark.org –very very important. For just for educational purposes, Org is for nonprofit organizations.

Alison: Oh, I didn’t even realize that. Is that true? Because I just typed in we Spark and you immediately come up.

Marlene: Well that’s good.

Alison: Yeah. So you’re you’re high on the search. That’s excellent…Wespark.org – we’ll put that in the, in the blurb for our listeners and readers. So that’ll be excellent. And are there buttons there and things that express ways that people can…

Marlene: Oh sure ways to give?  We have straight donations. We have monthly donations, which I’m like, that’s my next campaign is really increasing the monthly donations. And then we have torchbearers. Anybody who gives straight gifts 250 and up will be a torchbearer. And if you give $1,000 or more, then you can be on a plaque that hangs at Westpark prominently. It’s really cool. You can put it in memory in honor. And then we have, um, matrix. We have a room naming opportunities where you can name a room or a section of  we spark and uh, that’s the higher level money. And then um, and then we also have planned giving, you know, if somebody wants to bequeath something or leave us in their will,  which is starting to, I hate to say ramp up, but it’s being more exposed that we have this opportunity– we’re going to be here for unfortunately, longer than we’d like. And, um, so we need the support in that way. And then our special events and everything, especially with the planned giving, there’s all the documents that you need and then torchbearers, you know, that’s you know, that’s kind of leads us into regular giving. And, uh, so we can count on people to help keep this going. We are very lucky. We have a lot of people that really, um, want to give back. Yeah. You know, and, um, and, and we have volunteer opportunities. You can fill out an application or you can just call here and, um, and we’ll be happy to find a place for you, especially mostly in special events. So we have everything you need on the, on the website. It’s, um, and you can give me a call anytime.

Nancy: Also, I’m just going to add to that that there is no donation that’s too small. No, but there’s also no donation too large.

Marlene: So that’s right, Nancy.

Nancy: I don’t want anyone to think that, oh, I can only give $10 or I can only give five. That counts. It really does. And those small donations pay for help to play for classes and services. It’s it all matters. You know, everyone can give back. Yeah.

Marlene: I remember one of our guests came up to me and she was an older woman, and she gave me a check for $10, and she was really embarrassed about it. And she was just so happy that she was able to give back. And I said, oh, my God, this means the world to me, because it  just shows your appreciation. Like Nancy said, there’s no donation too small and people feel good about giving back to us because they feel that they’ve really gotten some value and some hope and inspiration and, um, and to help, you know, calm down the uncertainty of the disease.

Alison: That’s right- hope is what you are.

Nancy: We’re going to be launching, um, a program, uh, an ambassador program for our people, our guests who have been with us a long time, and there’s still attached, and they still want to be involved, so we’re going to have a monthly program for them and then, uh, provide, um, I believe it’s a monthly program where they come and can answer questions and talk to people who are new and provide some, you know, hope and perspective on…

Alison: That’s great.

Nancy: Yeah, we’re very excited about it.

Alison: Yeah. It’s like mentoring.

Nancy: That’s exactly.

Alison: Really someone taking you by the hand I love that. Do you guys were you guys just tell us what you think inside wink means?

Nancy: Well, I thought a little bit about this. And, you know, I think it’s sort of– I first I thought that, you know, for me, a wink is almost like a, a secret, you know, a little secret communication and an inside perspective on things and a shared perspective. So I think in a nutshell, that’s  kind of what it means to me. And you can extrapolate that on think about it inside job and all. But I think on first thought, I thought, yeah, it’s like I got some inside info for you.

Alison: I love that, Marlene?

Marlene: Thought about it too, and At first it said it’s a knowing, you know, when you’re when you give somebody a wink or a group of people a wink, it’s like there’s a knowing that you all have, you know, so it’s like inside job, you know, um, a perspective, a similar perspective. But then I thought a little bit more, and I remember there was a time, there are times when I was giving a speech or doing something that I’m afraid of, or having to accomplish something for a group. And the one person that, like I loved or a friend or a family member or mom, she gives me that wink and she and it’s like, you’re doing okay, kid, or you’re okay. And it kind of is feeling like, um, like a I don’t know what it is… It’s like you’re okay. Yeah. Give you a wink. Like a little flirty kind of. And and kind of calms me. I remember that my mother would do that. Or or a good friend or an ex-husband, you know.

Nancy: Uh, other otherwise known as a wasband.hahah

Nancy: I’d feel Oh, okay. Everything’s okay. That one person gives you that a okay kind of wink. So that was a beautiful question, by the way, because I got to think introspectively about that.

Alison: And you’re both right. Which is the best news, you know.

Jean: So there’s no right or wrong. And we can’t thank you enough for this great interview..

Alison: Should we ask them about pie, cake or ice cream?

Jean: Oh, right.

Alison: Pie. Cake or ice cream. Really quickly.

Marlene: Go ahead. Nancy.

Nancy: Cake, no so much— pie yes, but you can’t have apple pie without ice cream, so I’m just going to go say ice cream. okay.

Alison: Marlene?

Marlene: I love apple pie, but any kind of pie with really great crust.

Alison: Oh yeah. Mhm. The crust is good. .

Nancy: How about you, what do you guys like?

Alison: I like I like the turducken of all three. I would like something that was like a cake with a pie in the middle, and ice cream. I don’t even know if that’s possible, and put some hot fudge on it. What are we holding back for? Just go. Yeah. You know?  What do you like Jean?

Jean: I like cake. There’s something for everybody. Which is so good.

Alison:  And we so appreciate you two. Thank you so much. And we’ll be seeing so much more of you at the drag bingo and at the at your ceremony.

Jean: And what you’re doing is so inspiring. And thank you for everything that you’re doing.

Nancy: And thank you for that. And thank you for what you’re doing. Because I love I really love what you guys are doing with this, the podcast. It’s remarkable.

Alison: Thank you.

Marlene: It was fun to listen to to your podcast. And I finally figured out on Spotify how to play it in my car. Well, thank you for having us. It was really nice. And you guys are just lovely. Thank you.

Alison: thank you very, very much. And we’ll see you soon.

Nancy: See you next week.

Alison:  Bye. Take care.

Nancy: Oh, wait a minute. Yeah. I just wanted to congratulate you, Jean, on  the stamp.

Jean: Oh, yes. That was a big honor for Alex yesterday. It was really lovely. He’s beautiful subject of a forever stamp. And, uh, we had a beautiful celebration and revealing of the stamp down at Sony Studios. So, um, they could not have made it a more beautiful time for my family and I. And oh, so everyone on my Christmas list is getting a stamp from him.

Marlene: Well, maybe we’ll put it on the invitation of our invite…

Nancy: Oh, that’s a great idea,

Marlene: I saw it last night.

Jean: That’s clever yesterday.

Marlene: Yeah I think that would be really great — Well, you’ll see the invitation, you know, it’ll say honoring Jean Trebek with the heart of We Spark Award and it’s going to be really nice. We’re so excited about this whole thing. And thank you again for accepting us this award. And Allison, thanks for all your help with, you know, moving forward and it’s going to be great.

Alison: I get to sit next to her.

Jean: Oh that’s just so sweet.

Alison: Thank you guys so much. You really are so wonderful. I’m so glad that we know each other.

Marlene: Me too.

Alison: Okay, I’ll talk to you later. Bye bye.

Nancy: Bye, everybody.

Jean: Bye bye.

Alison: They are fantastic.

Jean: Wasn’t that great?

Alison: I just love their energy. And I love that they’re friends. And I love what they’re doing. Like, I think what they’re doing is so important.

Jean: Yes. I mean, how wonderful it is that there is a sanctuary, a place that people can go and get all these wonderful services. Yeah. And I love they have guided imagery and sound healing and massages. There are support groups for groups for men and teens. And if you’re a solo person without any family or you know if your friends are too busy, this place offers something for everybody.

Alison: And I know Marlene McGirt and she is the like, she’s so nice. Like any time I’ve seen her, she’s just exuded niceness, you know what I mean? Like and and Nancy Allen, like I’m like a fan of Nancy Allen’s. And to see how she is glowing and down to earth and and like her whole life, she’s like, adjusted her whole life to this passion to to continue her friend’s mission. You know, I just love that. I think it’s so important.

Jean: talk about a legacy of love. Yeah, that these women are leaving, passing the torch, you know? Uh.. From Wendy to Nancy.

Alison: You know, and they have a small group like their crew, their team is small. And so you feel like that must be like  such a nice place to work, right?

Jean:  so you and I went there for lunch, and we had a beautiful lunch with Nancy and Marlene, and I love their place that they had that beautiful like turquoise color and all the treatment rooms and a beautiful sit down place for for lunch to bring your lunch or make your lunch there. It was so cozy and comforting.

Alison: So please, please look them up. We Spark.org – I learned that today too, not dot com. And you know if you can donate or volunteer or go to their events. It really it’s worthwhile.

Jean: Right, and if you need any support with yourself or someone you love that is dealing with cancer, this place will get you on the right track. Because I know firsthand there is so much information thrown at you, and if nothing else, We Spark will help you navigate some of it.

Alison: Perfectly said. And you ended so quickly. That’s it. Uh. Thank you Jean.

Jean: That was my, uh…. What’s it called when you when when you’re in Olympics and you get off the vault… My dismount.

Alison: You landed, you stuck- you stuck the landing.  Have a great day. And thanks for listening.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Bye.

Jean: Good morning.

Alison : Good morning. Here we are with our, uh, with our little podcast. I love it.

Jean: I love it, too. You know, I was looking up when we spoke to Jessica last, and it’s pretty much a year. Exactly a year. Did you know that?

Alison : Yeah. But do you think we should say this? That we, that we screwed up?

Jean: Yeah.

Alison : You do?

Jean: I do.

Alison : Why?

Jean: To let people know we’re not perfect.

Alison : You don’t think they know that from our.. Okay. haha Should I keep this on too?

Jean:  Keep it going?

Alison : Okay..so yes, Jean is revealing our our dirty laundry. Was it a year ago today, Jean?

Jean: Yes. I forgot to push the record button, and we had a great interview with Jessica Zweig, and, uh, I didn’t record it. And then we had to eat crow and ask Jessica if she would be interviewed again. And she said, you know what? Why don’t you wait till my next book comes out and I’d be happy to do it? And she was so gracious. And you know what? I look back and I think at that time, a year ago, she was already, uh, coming out of the closet with how much she is embracing us, being spiritual beings, having a human experience.

Alison : That’s exactly right. Because she talked about that at that other interview. And and now I’m so excited to talk to her because now she has a new book called The Light Work. And it’s kind of huge and amazing, you know?

Jean: Yeah, I mean, here’s the B title –  “Reclaim your Feminine power, Live your cosmic Truth and Illuminate the World.”

Alison : What else you got to? haha

Jean:  I mean, it’s that all she’s got ???? hahah

Alison : Right, right. I’m lucky if I take a shower, but we’ll not go down that path. Um. She is amazing, though. She is, um, one of the top ten entrepreneurs to follow, as quoted by the Chicago Tribune. She was CEO and founder of,  Simply B, which was an amazing company that she started. It’s a personal branding company. And then the book that we initially read and talked about was Simply Be was be a no bullshit guide to increasing your self-worth and net Worth by Simply Being Yourself, which was a great it’s a great book to read.

Jean: It truly is. And so now she’s a powerful spiritual teacher who has been described by, who has been described as the voice of her time by, Marianne Williamson.

Alison : Yeah, she’s no slouch. Come on, who are these people?  I love Marianne Williamson. Well, here, we’re going to talk to her again. We’re going to hit record this time.

Jean: We are indeed.

Alison : It’s going to be great.

Jean: Yes. I can’t wait to chat with her again. Yeah.

Alison : She’s great. Hope you enjoy it.

Jessica: Hi, haha…you guyes are so sweet. HI again. I heard that’s so sweet of you.

Jean: Hi again.

Alison : You’re so sweet. Thank you for talking to us.

Jessica: Of course.

Speaker4: You’re an angel and a lot more.

Jessica:  thank you.

Jessica: Did you guys read it?

Alison : Yeah, I read the whole thing. And I got to tell you…it’s huge. It’s a huge, big thing. Like, it’s a kind of amazing.

Jessica: Thank you. I’m going to cry. Thank you. This. This book is my I… I channeled this book from another place. I don’t even really know where it came from, but I feel that, I feel there’s an importance and an and an urgency to it. And, um, I really feel like I’ve never done anything so important in my life than write that book. And so thank you for that reflection, because it’s not out yet, and not a lot of people have read it. And I’m getting, you know, feedback from the hosts of these shows that I’m on. And it’s it’s been it’s been affirming, I’ll tell you that because it’s so vulnerable. This book, you know, and I’m like, I, I got my hard copy a few months ago and I started reading it and I started having heart palpitations because I’m like, I’m I can’t believe I’m sharing all of this with the world and not just my own personal stories, but my beliefs.

Alison : Yeah, yeah.

Jessica: It means a lot to hear you say that. So thank you.

Jean: Well um, I didn’t finish it. I got to about one 180, and I’m still, i’m a much slower reader because this book, I have to read it slow. I, I it’s like moving something and I know, uh, I don’t know, sometime after you talk about the, um, you give like a glossary of terms, which I so appreciate a little bit after that, I, I got emotional and I thought to myself, why am I, why am I crying? What’s going on? And, uh, something this book is an activating book. It really is. So it is triggering something in my subconscious, which is which is releasing because I just started crying. And, um, so I want to say thank you so much for taking the time to, to really write down your experience and offer so many great tools which which are so needed right now more than ever, because it is the feminine energy which is not a gender. We’ll talk about that which is so vitally needed on the planet. Yeah.

Alison : Yeah. So in this book, you took a trip to Egypt. Yeah. And it’s sort of it’s sort of it’s sort of like a tapestry of that sort of the background and where you place us in the context. And then what happens in the book to me is that there are touch moments and touch points that have you evolve and transport you. Yes. Could you describe a little bit because I really want people to read the, Light Work, but could you describe a little bit about your trip and what came up for you? Just a little.

Jessica: Yeah. Well, I think it’s important to explain where I was before that trip, because I was in the darkest depths of burnout and I call it Rage Against the Machine, called my life. In the months leading up to that trip, I was running a business. It was a huge hustle. I was just not at all in alignment. And yet I felt like I had to play this character and hold up this identity. And I love to travel. I’m a world traveler, and I go to try to check out a new country every year if I can. And and I had chosen Egypt, and I say in more ways it chose me. And I really had no idea what was going to happen to me there, And I say that I had I don’t say, I know, I mean, the whole book is founded upon this, uh, identity death. Uh, you know, you go into these temples in Egypt, it’s not a vacation. It’s a spiritual pilgrimage. And you’re up really early in the mornings. You’re you’re going inside of these sacred spaces that are ancient to not, like, 4 or 5000 years. Ancient like tens of thousands of years ancient that have living frequencies in their walls. And these these major things happen to you in these temples that sound crazy when you tell them back in America, like, that’s not real, that you had to be on drugs for that to be real. And so Egypt. Egypt was the ultimate remembrance of who I really am. And the role I’ve really come here to play. And I got so many messages from these goddesses and higher galactic beings that, like, come to you and speak through you and you see them, you feel them.

Jessica: Things happen to your your body that I am not just a steward of this message of light, that I am not just a leader of the feminine frequency. I am here to be a conduit for this message for all women on the planet. Not that I would reach all women on the planet, but maybe I’ll reach a lot of them. I know I will with this book. And this book was just a a channeling. It just came through me. And in three months I wrote this book. It literally took me three months to write the whole thing. I didn’t use a ghostwriter, like AI, I wrote every word of it. And Egypt was the biggest catalyst for my DNA activation in recalling my codes of how I’m connected. Yes, to the galactic, but what I’m really here to do in this Earth plane and, you know, through all the things that I do and I think this is why I’ve connected with so with you so beautifully, both of you, is to restore the planet that we’re on to more love, light, feminine energy, healing, oneness, harmony. And, uh, I had kind of been hooked into the lie that I had to kill myself for, for that to be true or for me to make an impact. And I really unhooked from that. And this book poured through me as a a message for all women everywhere.

Alison : And, you know, it’s so it’s first of all that’s so beautiful. And I have to say, it actually, I think, helps our audience to hear that someone quote, “like you”, could be in a place that wasn’t –wow, do you know? And that you went looking for something and went on this trip, and now you feel you’ve changed? Like I just got chills because your career and your outside, your physical appearance looks, you know,  like the, like the,  the goal. Right? And the fact that you had emotions and ideas and thoughts that, um, were  hard feelings I think is so helpful to hear because, I think we live in a society where it’s all like a face value thing, and you forget that people are people like have are struggling. Everyone’s got their bag of rocks to carry.

Jessica: Amen.

Jessica: It’s  so, so true. And you know, I wrote my first book about authenticity, and I felt very much in alignment with that identity, that girl that ran that agency and had the platform and the book and the podcast and the big team and the fancy office and the success and the accolades, like I, that that business came from my soul at the time. Mhm. But it’s important to note that before I launched that business, I had a lot of scarcity, like actual financial scarcity. I open up my first book with going broke and having to ask my parents to bail me out at 33. So when I started Simply Be, my company that I just actually sold, I was never really healed from that scarcity trauma. I had just kind of skated over it in my system and then started making all this money, and I got really hooked into success, not because I was looking for fame and fortune, but because I didn’t want to die again, like I was, i was hustling for my survival, and the world kept telling me I was winning and I just kept running. And I hope that with and thank you for that beautiful reflection and everything that you know that people see because I do present pretty, pretty normal. You know, I’m well packaged, I guess my, my publisher told me that, but I’m, um, I’m, I’m hoping that this story and and this book, you know, and especially if anyone has sort of followed it, my journey at all in the last few years, that you are allowed to change, you’re allowed to shed layers.

Jessica: You’re allowed if you keep running at a pace that isn’t innate to your system, and you’re hooked into a patriarchal lie, that in order to win as a woman, you have to play that game. You will hit a wall at some point. And it’s okay to die. It’s okay to be reborn. It’s okay to continually evolve and follow your truth and be who you are, and let people see and know the real you as you even define what the real you is. That that’s part of what we’ve come here to do, which is to evolve. And, you know, I, I feel like I’ve, I’ve written this book that is, you know, very spiritual, very, you know, talking about the Palladians talking about, you know, DNA and cellular memory and all of the things. But I have succeeded in this sort of 3D reality and those things, those gifts, the business, the branding, the marketing, all of that’s always going to be part of what I do and who I am, and have translated ideally like these rather esoteric ideas for anybody to read and understand… Like that was my goal to really make it tangible, um, to the masses so that people don’t, don’t think like, oh, that’s too woo and not for me, because I feel like this is the truth. Like, we all need to know this. Like we all need to understand this and recognize what’s happening here and the role we play, you know, so I really appreciate that feedback.

Jean: It’s so powerful. And it’s exactly where we are at in consciousness as a collective consciousness. What you’re stating here in this book, and you give so many, um, tools and visualizations and, and it’s such a beautiful guidebook. Um, and where I’m at in your book, what’s constantly going through my head? Two things. One is owning your worth.

Jessica: Mhm. Yeah.

Jean: Your inner worth. Yeah. And then and then you say in a myriad of different ways consciousness informs matter.

Jessica: Yes.

Jean: Your spirit comes first, and then the material world. And isn’t that so true? Like we’ve we’ve been taught that like the Bible says, you know, put God first or have no other idol before God, right? So that’s what and I don’t know the Bible that well at all. But your book really speaks to what that means and what that means in your in your life and how you applied that. Um, but I would so not not but but and, and I would like you to tell us what is Light mean because I think it’s really, really important for you to talk about the meaning of light and also, Jessica, feminine power.

Jean: Yeah,

Jean: So please put some meaning to towards those two words.

Jessica: So I obviously get this question a lot because I’m on I’m talking about this on a lot of podcasts. But um, I’ll start by answering this question with a little bit of context from the, the, the book. So when I first pitched the Light Work to a different publisher, uh, they told me that the word Light was problematic and that I couldn’t use it in my title. And it really.. You just shook your head. It was like confusing. I was like, why? And I sat with it. And then it dawned on me. And I write this in the book, that the Light is you. The Light is you, in your fully expressed completely magnificent, unapologetic full power. And that can be very threatening to people. Not because they’re afraid and intimidated by your Light, but they’re often unconscious of the their own Light, unexpressed within themselves. And the way that the Palladians define light is information. Information is a synonym for light. Light is information. It is the information of truth that is stored in the cells of your body. That is, the same cells and data that is made of making the stars. Because we’re all made of stardust. That’s actually science. And we are we are muted. We are dormant. We are asleep. We are afraid of that power. Just look around the the world like mass media and social media and sorry, but big pharma and big food that’s keeping us sick and and weak and and numb.

Jessica: We’re disassociated from that Light within us. And that creates a lot of dis ease and dis disassociation and darkness. Darkness isn’t evil. Darkness is simply the lack of information. Darkness turns into evil, turns into toxicity, turns into self-loathing, hatred, gossip. Hate. War. Because we’re disconnected from the truth. That we’re all we’re all connected. We’re all innately powerful. We’re all innately worthy. We’re all innately, innately needed. And when we are small, we we don’t intimidate people. We don’t disrupt the systems. And so to really live your Light means to live your authentic truth, To step forward with your full power and mission and what you’re here to do. And I believe that if we’re coming from truth, if we’re coming from love, we’re here to help make this world a better, more harmonic, peaceful place where everyone wins, where everyone thrives, not just a select few. And that is threatening to people whether they’re conscious of it or not. And I really studied light through the lens of the palladians. And they’re an extraterrestrial star family from which I am from. And they have they were the ones that spoke to me in the temple of Hathor and the goddess, uh, the goddess of Hathor in Egypt at Dendera. And they were the ones that told me to your question, Jean, the feminine power, this feminine energy, this feminine frequency that is coming down into the planet right now, that is actually returning because this whole planet is a feminine being.

Jessica: We’re on Mother Earth, and we’ve been co-opted by not saying the masculine is bad the toxic, patriarchal, overvalued, dominant, masculine that is disempowered the feminine, not gender, but values. And the Light is this seat of consciousness that lives within all of us, that is here to truly be empowered, sovereign and free. And that not not everybody who’s got, you know, some control remote controls at the top want want human beings to know that they’re sovereign, powerful and free. And and so that is, uh, I think one of my biggest commitments when it comes to my work is, is the feminine is really bringing women home to this sense of their responsibility as feminine bodies on this planet to, at least because we’re in feminine bodies… Again, this isn’t about gender, but to lead a new earth and to create a place that is a world of society, a community of family, a company, a culture, a team that is more, more loving. And I really believe that’s in all of us to do. It’s our responsibility. So that’s what Light is to me. Um, and I ended up going with a different publisher, clearly that loved my title.

Alison : That’s right. Thank you. There’s the door.

Jessica: Yes, exactly.

Alison : Follow the light…Goodbye.

Jessica: You’re not my people.

Alison : Exactly, exactly. You know, it’s interesting because, um. it’s a very big book in terms of the thoughts and the ideas, and it’s a lot of downloading information, at least for me. And yet, I like the way you make it be that I can find things that I can do and questions that I can ask myself. I don’t have to run out and form another PEEDA. I don’t have to go..

Jean:  to Egypt!

Jessica: Right? No,

Alison : I can be here and, you know, in California and I love that. Where did you get, at the end of every chapter you give these invitation and keys….and those are beautiful. How did you come up with all? Because it’s the invitation or questions and the key is sort of meditation or something that really is thought provoking. How did you come up with these?

Jessica: So I love that you asked this question. I love those invitations and keys so much. I there’s such a beautiful, intentional part of the book. I wanted the book to be tangible to, you know, to what you just said. I don’t want you to read it and feel like I got to go to Egypt now. No, I want you to know that you hold the tools right there in your hand by holding my book. And so actionability and implementation is an execution. Like that’s the businesswoman in me. It’s important to me like it doesn’t do you any service to just be inspired and then go off back to your life. Like, I wanted to provide the reader with tools. So I knew at the end of every chapter I was going to provide some some worksheets. Um, and then as, as the book evolved, so did what those tools would be. And I really loved the word invitation. You know, this isn’t a command. This isn’t an, you know, an even a request or an assignment. It’s an invitation. Like, you get to choose to step through your own portal of darkness and light to do this work, to find something new, to turn on the light switch.

Jessica: And back to your question about what is Light? If you notice at the end of every journaling section of every invitation set, the last question is what new information do you now have that you’ve journaled on these? And I didn’t just want to stop with the the journal prompts and having the reader kind of be with them, the these thoughts in their own mind. I wanted them to move it to to experience something, and I have a key tattooed on my heart. Um, the key represents to me the priestess’s key. So when I learned about that archetype many years ago, my teacher taught me a lot about her. But what I took away is that,  one of her elements is still water. Not just water, but still water… Where you can see your own reflection. Where you working with the priestess isn’t there to worship her, but to worship yourself, to see the divinity within yourself. And she’s called the keeper of the keys because she’s here to help you unlock that. And so the key is very significant. There’s a key on the cover of the book, and so I wanted it to be an internal, externalized experience with every chapter because I feel we, you know, to to your point around consciousness informs matter. Thought is, thought creates – we’re we’re living in physical vessels that are our temples, and we store things in our bodies. We store trauma, we store our emotions. We we store stagnant energy. And it it needs to move. And so the invitation paired with the key just felt very complete, so that they there could be real alchemy at the end of every chapter and that it didn’t just stay in one’s head. So thank you so much for asking about those. Those are one of my favorite parts of the whole book.

Alison : I looked forward, I looked forward to them all. You know, every single one. I was like, oh, what’s this? What’s this one going to be, you know, and oh, this is so exciting. You know, just just opening it up. What women in your life do you admire? Yeah. It doesn’t have to be like Oprah. right…I mean, I admire Oprah, but like, you talk about your mom or Pat, you know… .

Jessica: oh yes… Pat.

Jean: I think your I think your prompts are, are are so unique.

Jessica: Thank you.

Speaker1: and wonderful, because I have done I have been on this journey for a long time. And I did think to myself, Jessica, wow, this book is moving you. And um, I probably have 18 years on you and I’m like, huh? There is still more to shed and to embrace and, um, and I love that…

Jessica:  thank you so much.

Jean: It’s so beautiful. So another thing that I love about your book is you are empowering women financially and you speak about that. Can you can you tell our listeners? That money is not a taboo. You are really championing women to get financially strong.

Jessica: Yes, yes.

Jean: Why is that?

Jessica: Well, abundance is our birthright.  I also, I say this often. This is really the ethos of my podcast and so much of my work and all the coaching that I do, but I, I believe that when women have money, women have power. Those two things are conjoined in this reality. And when women have both, I believe this world is going to be a better place. If you imagine, you know, all of the corporations and all the countries and all the institutions and all the, you know, all the industries I’ve mentioned, like if they were run by women, the whole world was run by women. It would just be a different world. Would it be a perfect world? No, but it would be a different world. And I did a lot of research in my book, specifically around the matriarchy. Really goddess cultures. What, what what the world looked like before we could just simply write stuff down. And 4000 years ago, at the dawn of the patriarchy and this world was run by women, this is what I learned. It was a it was a matriarchal society that honored all living things. Women were at the top of the tribes. They could read the seasons and would tell the men when to go hunt based on how the leaves were turning. I mean, it was mind blowing. And so I feel very called to, you know, restore this planet from from many levels.

Jessica: But we’re here in 2024. Women are rising. Entrepreneurship is exploding. Women are making more money than they once did. Not as much. We still make $0.80 to the dollar, but it’s better than $0.60 to the dollar like it was in the 80s. But women are going off and starting their own companies and making their own money, which is beautiful. And I just really want to teach women. I have a whole chapter in the book around power and innate worth that you were born worthy, that you don’t have to prove you’re worthy of nothing, to prove you were born perfectly gifted and needed, but to channel our desires for money from this place of, yes, innate worthiness, but most of all innate safety that we we can hold money, that we are able to make it and hold it, and that we aren’t going to die. You know, we’re programmed from our parents, parents, parents, parents, parents, parents like to live in the sense of survival, and that just keeps women so sick. It keeps our nervous system so fried. It keeps our light so dim. And so to empower ourselves to live financially free is so much more than just being able to buy nice shoes. It’s like… we’re healing the earth by being women who are in abundance. You know, we’re healing the the planet. We’re healing every single person we touch because we we will do good with our money, and we take our gifts as women and channel them, I think, in a in a different way. And to have an overflow is, is how we’re meant to live. And I want women to learn how to do that. And, and I walk, you know, in the book I have these eight divine feminine embodiments of wealth, where I really kind of unpack this whole concept of manifestation and which is such a hot topic today. And I see it and I, I follow a lot of these, you know, teachers, some of them are men, some of them are women. And I, I’m here for it and I get it and it’s it, it has its place, but a lot of it is psychological. It’s like, you know, affirmations and visualizations and expansion and vision boards and thought, you know, thinking states and that’s beautiful. That’s the content, however, not the context that we are actually programmed in our bodies to not feel safe to hold and receive money in the first place. And that’s what we have to really look at and rewire our systems to know that we are deserving to learn how to receive in the first place. I have a you know, section about how women can’t even receive compliments. We’re like so quick to deflect. And so I, I feel that back to that, when women have money, when they have power, and when we have both, this world is going to be better. And, you know, at least those are the women that I ride with. And I want more women to ride with me and and to really live in this state of abundance, true abundance.

Alison : Well, I think we’re on your bus..

Jessica: Yeah, I know you are. I’m on your bus riding with you.

Alison : Um, you know, we were just talking about that about about, um, feeling like we are worthy of being honored.

Jessica: Yes.

Alison : Yes. Just discussing that before.

Jean: And and that’s why I think also this is coming again for me, that worthiness, you know, and that’s why, you know, this book made me cry. It cracked, I don’t know. And I was like, why? Okay, Jean, why are you crying? What’s coming up? And I couldn’t put my finger on it all i know it was just reading your book, so I will… That’s why for me, this book is … I have to go back to a little, um, because, you know, we wanted to read this book because we knew we got the privilege of interviewing you, but I got, like, I can’t go faster.

Jessica: Um, but it’s okay…I get it, it’s a deep book, you know?

Jessica: And I, um, I had a friend read it. She read the whole thing, and she said that she would go to bed after reading it, and she felt like her subconscious mind was being rewired. Yeah. And she was having, like, these wild dreams where she was, like, healing things in her dreams and would wake up with new information from reading my book. And I was like, amazing. Thank you for sharing that. I just I think the book, it’s a personal book and I think it’s going to be read in a personal way based on who’s reading it.

Alison : Could you just you talk about in your book, but I just wanted to bring it up because I think it’s so powerful. Mission versus purpose.

Jessica: Yeah, yeah.

Alison : So I think women women need to hear what your thoughts are on this. I thought they were very interesting.

Jessica: Thank you.

Jessica: So we’ve all heard, like, follow your purpose. Like find your purpose. And I, I sat with that and I was like, what if you don’t find it? Like what happens. Like if you don’t align your life time and you know, identity to something external like that, you do are known for what? Um,  what then and what really inspired that from Egypt. Back to, you know, a story I mentioned in the book, we get to Karnak, which is one of the most significant temples in all of Egypt. It’s in Luxor, and we get, um, close to the parking lot, and our guide comes on the microphone. And every temple sort of has a different message, intention, opportunity to experience that specific medicine of that temple. And my guides tell us all, Karnak is known to be the Temple of Purpose, and some say that people traverse these walls and walk out finding their purpose. And I thought to myself, I mean, this is this is a true story. I was sitting in the back of the bus and I was like, purpose -shmerpurpose. Like I, I know my purpose. Look at my life. You know, like I’ve done enough to know that I’m on purpose. I not going to find anything new at this temple. And I walked around it by myself for a few hours. We got a lot of time at these temples, and, um, I was in this random, obscure structure. I forget the name of it, but I was in this dark room, and this, like, white stream of light was pouring kind of through a crack in the ceiling. And I sort of stood underneath it and I felt something alchemize. I mean, these temples, like I said, they just they move you in ways that are really hard to describe.

Jessica: And I step out of the temple because we had to get back to the bus. And I literally I’m walking out and this tiny white feather floats in front of my face and I like, put my hand out and it lands in my hand. And my friend Laura, who’s like six foot tall, like, is standing next to me looking down. She’s like, did that just happen? Like, because and feathers are my sign. Feathers are my totem. And it’s in that moment I really heard the universe kind of laugh at me. Like you have been living so heavy, living this, doing your purpose. You’ve been killing yourself to build the business and have the book and the podcast and all the things that are so on purpose. So how is that? How is that living, living in your light? If it if this purpose that you’ve created doesn’t sucks you dry. Um. And I got this idea and this like, this notion of, like, what is my true reason for being here? And it my desire is to live as light as a feather, to feel that light, that free and still be powerful. And how can I do that for myself and teach women how to do that, too? Because I know I’m not the only one that’s suffering in this experience. And the Palladians talk a lot about mission. You know, they use the word renegade, they use the word light warrior, and that we’re not here to just build a business or write a book, or launch a beautiful conference, or have this beautiful career on our resume that extends, like in an upward ascension. We’re here to live out a much deeper reason to create a deeper ripple effect in humanity.

Jessica: And that’s your mission, like. And however you express that. But it’s bigger than what you get paid for. And if you can connect what you get paid for to your mission, like, all the better. And I walk the reader through a framework called your creation, which is typically your expression of your career, what you do professionally, your greatest creation, your most amazing accomplishments, your calling, what you would do if you didn’t get paid for it, and your cause. Why are you really here? What is the legacy you’re going to leave behind? What is the pebble in the pond ripple effect that you are going to make? And when we combine those things together, we find our mission, right?

Jean: that’s beautiful.

Alison : It’s really amazing. And I think women need to hear that, I really do.

Jessica: Thank you. I do too.

Jean: When you look at the word enlightenment, that’s that’s exactly what you’re talking about. You know, living from the light within, how it expresses outwardly with joy and you talk about that, too. The power of joy, how vital that is. And it is we’re constantly doing, doing schedule– for the feminine energy, that’s like putting a blanket on her.

Jessica: It is. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Jean: Well, I just think that that we’ve been so layered and programmed that it’s hard to get out of that cycle. But like you said, if doing the work– the book it will slowly melt away that layering and you have to do it like try it or deny it. So —-

Jessica: Yeah.

Jessica: No I, I so appreciate you bringing that into the conversation because in the comment about the blanket like when like that is where the, the feminine rises. And not to say that the feminine doesn’t have shades. You know, I talk about the dark, feminine and sacred rage and just feeling all of our emotions and what a powerful vehicle our emotions are to ascend and to alchemize and transmute. But, when I was in Egypt again, I was in Hathor’s temple. Um, I love for your listeners to read the book, but there is a pretty significant story of what happened to me in that temple. And I got, you know, a lot of downloads, like actual downloads, like spirit, like like chorus of voices speaking to me, through me, through my crown chakra for multiple minutes. And I walked out of that temple.

Jessica: And frankly, got out my iPhone and wrote it all down because I didn’t want to forget any of it And not what I wrote down in my iPhone went into the book like it’s I heard. And, um, one of the things that they told me was like, Jess, you’ve missed you’ve missed the memo girl. Like this, this human experience is meant to be fun. Yeah. This human experience is meant for your pleasure and for your bliss. And we we think that that’s, um, indulgent or something. Or that we have to earn and earn that. And they, they said to me, I, I got these flashes of, like, my puppies and chocolate and I was wearing this really beautiful, like, flowy outfit. And I was I saw my husband, who’s hot, and they were like, you get to have sex with him and you get to kiss those dogs, and you get to wear those cute clothes, and you get to eat that chocolate. Like, every like what a gift it is to be in a human body. And you, you, you take for granted all of it. Like every minute of it. You don’t even realize what a blessing it is to be alive and in this body called you on this plane. And if you don’t enjoy it for us, will you please, if you don’t enjoy it for you? They said this–

Jessica: They’re like, Will you please enjoy it for us? Because we can’t be down there, but you’re missing it and we want you to enjoy it for us. If you’re not going to enjoy it for for yourself. And I just I committed to joy as a radical act. After that trip, I made it my word for the year. I made it my biggest intention, a core value in my life. And whether you’re a man or you’re a woman. Like when we choose joy because joy is a choice. Happiness is a fleeting emotion. Joy is different. Joy is a commitment. Joy is a devotional act. We get into a different frequency state. We actually get our our bodies back into a state of alignment. We’re in our heart space, and when we’re in alignment, we we literally vibrate differently. We become more magnetic. We attract more of what we want. We open up doors of opportunity. Serendipity starts to take place. It’s not like woo woo like, sounds good stuff. It’s it’s real. It’s real. And that was one of the biggest headlines from my whole trip to Egypt, which is a core throughline in the book, is like joy, like joy is the way. And, you know, is it perfect every day? No, but it it’s it’s a commitment for sure that I make.

Alison : Is the Commitment to seeing, um, or being aware in a, in a, in a state of gratitude. Is that a way to attain joy? Like how? Like daily away from Egypt?

Jessica: Yeah, yeah.

Alison : Looking for a parking space and you’re shopping for food and your dog is sick and…

Jessica: Yeah.

Alison : You know. Yeah. Where, how do you, how can you tap into that?

Jessica: Well, life will life and things will happen. And you’re not going to feel joyful every day, but I do I do have some very consistent practices. And for me, joy is so simple. You know, I find joy in simple things. Gratitude is absolutely one of them. I do this almost every day with my husband. I’m like, what are three things you’re grateful for? Let’s start with that. Let’s end with that. Let’s go to dinner and talk about what we’re grateful for. I feel like that is such medicine because we do take so much for granted. We live such, you know, beautiful lives. Just by, I’m sure people listening to this podcast, I think I read, I wrote, I wrote about this in my book. Less than over half the world’s population lives on like less than $5 a day, right? I mean, it’s crazy. So, yes, gratitude. Gratitude all the time. I really have connected with Mother Earth, taking walks like nature walks I picked up art supplies from a local art store and I draw like brings me into my heart space, child like play and joy. I have to spend time at my altar every single morning just to drop in and communicate and ask for protection, or call them in. That is 100% a non-negotiable for me. I love to travel. I still take trips and and break away from work. I’m very blessed right now if I’m going to be, you know, honest. And it’s taken me a minute to get here. Not that I didn’t love what I was doing at my agency. It was always just a little adjacent to what I really wanted to be doing and now what I’m doing is I’m empowering women every day.

Jessica: And yes my schedule is full, but man do I enjoy it. I am so grateful to do this work and to see other women remember who they are and come alive and give them the tools. It’s just that brings me joy. So I’m blessed to have dedicated my career now to the thing I was put here to do. And, you know, just I love to ecstatic dance. I go, I do like conscious sober dance parties on the week, like Like anything that brings me joy. Like I have a Stanley___ like this brings me joy. Like, honestly— it’s like, it’s like.. I don’t go anywhere without it.  It’s kind of a problem.

Jessica: I like, try to live in that vibration. I just, I just do, you know. Is it everyday perfect? No, I, I’m human. I have I’ve had plenty of ups and downs, especially in the last year. We moved, launched a book, sold my business like life is amazing, but it’s a lot. And, um, that’s what I’m saying. It’s a devotion. Like it’s a daily devotion to joy in the simplest and the most extreme forms, and it changes our energy when we’re in a state of joy when we commit to that.

Jean: And that’s the key to everything…. Is changing your energy, your vibe, your attitude.  Like you said, be a magnet and be able to receive more.

Jessica: Yeah.

Alison : I love that you’re not saying things like Lamborghini or do you know what I mean? Like you’re saying very, things that are very accessible to everybody, everywhere, which I think is very important.

Jessica: Yea..

Alison : You seem very relaxed. How has life been after Egypt for you? I mean, I’m sure the book is ah, like how, how how are you, how are you?

Jessica: I’m good. I mean, I’m in the middle of a book launch right now, which is like a business on top of a business. So I’m very full, but I’m talking about my book, you know, and it’s nothing, nothing is bringing me more joy than than lately. But, um, thank you for that reflection. I, I, I say I died in Egypt like, I had a full on death in that temple of Hathor that I write about in the book. And, um, I came home new and I that’s the opening section of the book. I am new and I something happened to me there where, you know, DNA, I think shifted. And I’ve really committed to slowness. I’ve committed to softness. I have been very committed to my nervous system healing. I have started, I changed my diet. I drink more minerals. I ground every day. I have better boundaries.  I moved cities, I’m no longer in Chicago or it’s go go go. I’m in Nashville. Um, yeah. Which is, you know, perfect for me. And, um, my husband and I live in a very naturist area. I, I get out regularly. I have to walk almost every day, I hug trees.

Jessica: I’m not joking. Like, I go sit in parks and commune with trees on a regular basis. I just really, um, I guess what I really want to communicate is I was not in not in my body like I was authentic, but I wasn’t, as in not embodied. Although that’s parallel but literally comfortable being in my body because I had so much stress and anxiety and I was constantly leaving my body. And I’ve made it a practice to not leave, and it has softened me. Yeah. Um, and I it’s it’s healed me. And I see, you know, a lot of women, I just, I did a podcast, um, a couple months ago on my own show called Why Entrepreneur? Why high performing women have been duped. Um, to think that when we achieve all the things that we’re somewhat successful and powerful and how it’s just run us so ragged. Yeah. To get there. And we’ve just lost our way of what it really is like to be in a feminine body and how we should treat it. And I try and practice what I preach and, um, just move a lot slower these days. Yeah, just as much as I can in a book launch.

Alison : Slow is wonderful.

Jean: It is. And you’re just pointing people into the most beautiful direction.

Jessica: Thank you.

Jean: (caughing)Excuse me. And that’s to your heart and to your worth.

Jessica: Thank you.

Jean: Life and your light.

Jessica: I love you, ladies.

Alison : You really are so amazing. And we just were so looking forward to talking to you. And when I finished this, I have to say, I read that whole thing and I read that I read all your resources and I went, I’m great. I’m a great.

Jean:  You are!

Jessica: You are.

Alison : I’m all– I’m doing good. Like I, I’m cooking and that’s what this that’s what I just got chills again. That’s what this made me feel. So thank you so so much and huge joyful blessings to you and to your husband and your dogs.

Jean: And thank you so much for coming back on.

Alison : yes, you’re so kind.

Jean: You are. You’re such a generous, gorgeous spirit. Jessica. And we will be yelping you and championing you and whatever your.. And just know we’re in your corner. And we will do our part to hold our joy, as a mission of, we got this.

Jessica: We do got this.. We’re in this together. You ladies are light workers. You’re light workers. And I met you before I even wrote this book. And I knew we were cut from the same star seeds. And you just, it’s a joy to be in your energy. And I’m so blessed to know you both. And to have you in my corner. And to know that I’m in yours and that to be seen, you know, is like one of the most deepest human yearnings of them all. And just I really feel like, um, I’m getting a little emotional. You see me, and it’s been a very just been a gift to know you. So, of course, I was coming back. I was looking forward to this as much as you were, I really was. I love I’m like, yay, I get to be with them again.  I was not going to pass this up.

Alison : You’re fantastic. And let’s stay in touch. And that’s it. I just wanted to say you’re just- everyone should read the Light Work. I really believe that. Yeah, I think it’s a…

Jean: I think that’s going to be my Amazon review.

Alison : Oh yeah. Yeah okay. We got it.

Jessica: Amazing. Ladies, I’m just so grateful for your time and your energy and your presence and your words. I’m just really, truly today was it was the highlight of my week. Thank you for having me.

Jean: Same. We love you.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

Jessica: You too.

Jean: Bye Well, I think she hit it out of the park.

Alison : Yep! That’s all.. Have a nice day.

Jean: Yeah. That’s it.

Alison : Yeah. That’s it. I mean, uh, she’s so, uh, calm now and very together. And I felt very, very vulnerable at the same time and very open. And I felt, I feel like with her, like she really wants the best. I’m sorry. My thing is going off. She really wants the best for everyone. She wants– you really get that sense that it’s not about writing the best book. It really is about helping us and helping everyone, including herself, to achieve the sort of awareness that can move us to feel really good about ourselves and to accomplish really wonderful things, big and small.

Jean: Right? Well said. Uh, it goes back to that phrase, you know, we teach what we need to learn, or how about we teach what we need to remember. And her book is all about remembering that we are Light, we are Love. And you know when the outer world gets so loud and we get very distracted. And we’re living in the, the always the intellect, you know, we’re losing our spark. We’re losing our light. And she gives so many great examples how to dial it back. And I’m so grateful for this beautiful book.

Alison : Yes, and I really am going to I’m really going to go through it again now that I read it, just for the interview sake. You know, I really want to go back and really delve into those invitations and keys.

Jean: Because she had some great questions, and I and I kept thinking to just get through, get through the book. And but I was like, I’m just going to be with that question for a little bit.

Alison : And I love that she says, do it in a community. If you have a community of women, yes, that you really would love to experience something different with, get together, read the book, do the keys, do the invitation. And I think that only I think, I think people, when they come together in a community, the power that you can generate is infinite.

Jean: That might be a book for our next book club.

Alison : Yes, exactly. Yeah, I think it would be great.

Jean: Right. Well, Jessica, you’ve given us a beautiful legacy of love, and we’re so grateful. And thank you, thank you, thank you.

Alison : Thank you, thank you, and thank you Jeannie…

Jean: Thank you, sweet Allison.

Alison : Have a great day.

Jean: Bye bye.

Jean: Alison!

Alison: Here we are!

Jean: We made it.

Alison: We did, we did. You had a busy morning.

Jean: I did have a busy morning. I was taking my friend, well, our friend Kathleen to look at some possible, uh, retirement homes.

Alison: That’s beautiful. Yeah. It’s so great that you’re doing that.  I think always doing it with a friend is excellent.

Jean: Yeah..I think doing anything like that with someone, uh, that way you can bounce off ideas.

Alison: Right. And so,  did did you see this? Yeah. I didn’t see that, I saw that. Did you see this? Yeah, I love that. And you’re the perfect person to do that with. You and Kathleen are such a good team.

Jean: Well I mean, I do love her so, and I know the right and perfect place will be revealed to her..

Alison: Because you’re going to manifest that.

Jean: Because I’m going to hold the energy.

Alison: Correct.

Jean: Yes, and be open and receptive to having this desire already filled.

Alison: That’s right. And that is exactly what we’re talking about today with Christy Whitman. She wrote a fantastic book called The Desire Factor-.

Jean: How to Embrace Your Materialistic Nature, to Reclaim your full Spiritual Power.

Alison: That’s a beautiful sentence.

Jean: Yeah. Isn’t it though? Yeah. Uh, so I love how she links the physical world to the spiritual world. And I and I know we’re going to receive a lot of benefit from our interview with her.

Alison: Right. It’s going to be great. So, are you ready?

Jean: I’m ready.

Alison: All right, here we go.

Alison: And you’re like, oh, hi!…

Christy Whitman: I love it. I love it, you guys.. I come on and you’re both laughing. That’s amazing.

Alison: We’re always we’re always laughing.

Christy Whitman: That’s it, I love it.  Then I’m in the right place. Hi.

Alison: Hi, how are you? I’m Allison.

Christy Whitman: Hi, Allison.

Jean: I’m. My name is Jean.

Christy Whitman: And hi, Jean.

Jean: We have been so excited to  talk with you about your wonderful book.

Christy Whitman: Oh thank you, I love that, I love that.

Alison: I have so many questions. Um, so I was saying to Jean, wait a minute… How does this work this way? How does this happen? So you, can you just sum up the thought process and the idea of this book for our listeners?

Christy Whitman: Yes, so we have desires that come from an inspired place. And when we deny those desires like, oh, I don’t know how I’m too old, you know, I’m too young, I don’t have this, I don’t have that… I’ll have it when. I have it….. Then all of that takes us away from that connection of what the desire actually creates for us. (So excuse me, plane flying over head)  so it’s never about, and yet it is, the end desire–  it’s the process of who we become in it, in attaining that desire or not.  It’s always the process of who we, who we get to become. So sometimes, you know, we wish for something or desire for something, and then later we’re like, thank God that didn’t happen, you know?

Jean: Right, like that saying you be careful what you wish for.

Christy Whitman: Yes, exactly.

Alison: Or like when people when something doesn’t happen, a lot of my friends will say that was the biggest blessing that that didn’t happen.

Christy Whitman: Yes, there’s a Garth Brooks song. Thank God for unanswered prayers.

Alison: Yes, yes. Yeah, that’s exactly it. And you have such good. You have, um, like seven principles to follow, and some of them are so interesting to me. Like, like the principle of having, do you know, is so interesting because you don’t realize that sometimes you’re wishing for something is actually reinforcing lack.

Christy Whitman: Yes. It’s a feeling of separation… Because that feeling of, um, I’ll have it when or I’ll have it then, it’s always delaying that vibration, you know, it’s like it’s not part of us. We’ll have it later. Or we say when that happens or, um, even when the client the other day, she’s like, well, I could feel something’s going to be happening or something’s going to happen. And it’s like, no, something’s already happening.  you know what I mean? It’s it’s the it’s the field of whatever my desire is, as I can picture it, I’m already creating an energetic connection to it– and you know, and then that starts the whole thing of it. But the principle of having is where you’re already in such a contented place with it and you feel so fulfilled, there’s no like, oh, I wish I had it, or, you know, I’d be complete if or when or any of that you have it so you can feel settled on your way to it. When it manifests in the physical, it’s always energy first, right?

Jean: Yeah, Well, what you just said there, it’s always energy first…. And I think what you just said is, is the crux of your book, you know, getting your energy in alignment, uh, with, with your desire, whatever your desire is..so like you say, if it’s a Gucci purse or if it’s, um, you know, a wellness center, whatever that is. And, um, can you talk a little bit just for our listeners, like what made you become so passionate about this field of study?

Christy Whitman: Well, you know, it was a religious science practitioner, like yourself, Jean.   I was on a journey of, you know, the traditional… I graduated from college. I got engaged, you know, I did this, this, this and this. And I thought, then I will finally be happy, you know…

Christy Whitman: I actually did have a moment, I had a moment in my life when I was in Capri, and I saw all of the beautiful designer,  purses…like, Fendi and that was like, oh, but I haven’t another than that… I haven’t experienced that. But, um, I was waiting for that, right, and it’s like, wait, I checked everything off and I’m still not happy, you know? So if it’s not all these things I was told or I thought or I assumed, then what is it? And that that just opened up my hunger, my thirst. And we’re talking almost 30 years ago. Um, um, where, you know, I was doing traditional therapy and it was like, there’s got to be something even more. I feel like I’m still missing something. And that hunger, that thirst led me to, um, move to California. And I met a hairdresser who was just so different, and I didn’t have the words I could explain and describe now. But I didn’t have the words back then. But I was just observing her and noticing that she was so light filled and there was just something different about her. And so finally being as curious and as blunt as I am, I’m like, okay, what did you what do you do? And she says, I meditate. And at this point in time I was like a very sheltered girl from Scottsdale, Arizona. You know, middle class family went to ASU, you know, like moved to Chicago, like I had a very sheltered life and I didn’t know anybody at this point who meditated.

Christy Whitman: And back then we didn’t have the internet. And, you know, if you didn’t see it happening, it didn’t exist. Right? But it wasn’t on TV. It didn’t really exist. Right? I mean, so that when she said she meditated, it was like my mind went to like, some guru guy… with a long white beard, sitting in Yogi style on top of a mountain. It was like my brain went, you know? And she was this hip chick from San Ramon, California, had a boyfriend, a dog, you know, living a normal life. And so she she taught me about her, talked to me about her meditation because I was like that woman in Harry met Sally, you know, because I was like, I want what she’s having. Right… I’m like, I don’t care who it was, how she got it, I wanted it. So, um, I literally left the salon. She gave me her meditation teachers number, left the salon, and back in the day, there was a big phones. Right. I’m dialing it and left a message, and I came to her house. It was a couple of weeks later and I walk in and she’s got angel statues and clinky clunky music and incense and, you know, she invites me to sit on the floor on a cushion and I am going, Scottsdale, Arizona. I was like, what? What? I mean, this is so weird for me, right? Right. Um, but she looked like deep into my eyes and into my soul like nobody ever did.

Christy Whitman: And she just said, you create your own reality. And when again, I had never heard that. And when she said that, something in me opened up and I went, yes, how? Yeah, I that is true. I create. And then my mind went, well how do I how do I create my own reality? And that’s where I started with thoughts and paying attention to thoughts. And then I was just so hungry that I went, when I moved to Redding, California, I happened to go to the church of Redding, uh, religious science. And Terry Cole-whittaker came and spoke. And you know, (btw,she endorsed my very first book) when she spoke, i sat there, you know, in the morning, just ready to go to church and, you know, get uplifted. I was mesmerized by her, because she had so much passion and just just a light in her. And I was, you know, my mind was like back then (i don’t do this at least as much.) I try not to, um, but I was comparing myself to her. I’m like, I don’t have that passion in my life,  what lights her up, because I certainly don’t have that. It was another one of those, i’ll have what she’s having moments. Right. And, uh, she was very, very generous and very courteous. And, um, she had bought, she was selling this workbook to how to learn about these things called, the universal laws.

Christy Whitman: And I had been meditating and I had been practicing, but one of the laws that she talked about, which absolutely changed my reality in that moment, was the law of sufficiency and abundance.  I just started applying that and really studying what is lack? What is abundance? What you know, and understanding. Where do I do it? In my consciousness, meaning what I say, what I think, how I feel? And, um, she was graciousness, gracious enough because I got to a place where all of a sudden I had a download in the middle of the night, in which I got up and started, you know, writing. And that’s where I first started, you know, channeling and scribing and, um, after three days of being woken up at 1:05 in the morning and getting, getting up and and writing, I emailed Terry Cole-whittaker and I said, I think I’m writing a book. How do you get a book published? And she she guided me. She literally said, go online and find a literary agent. So I typed in literary agent, not pop this guy’s face. And he was a publisher and a literary agent. And, you know, on and on it went. I got it published. And then I started speaking on the topics and helping people do the energy work. And then people asked me to coach, and I had no idea what coaching was. This is 23 years ago… Life coaching. I’m like people would describe it to me and I’m like, people get paid to do that?

Christy Whitman: Like, you know, like call me on the phone and I’ll walk you through it, you know? So it just it just kept leading into each. It was just that seeking and leaning in and wanting to grow and wanting to still continue to expand. And it was all based on even what I wrote about in The Desire Factor, the desire to stay in light, the desire to serve. Um, one thing I want to mention is that during this time when I started opening up, my sister, who was 11 years older than me, took her life. And that moment literally just, change the world as I knew it… And at the same time was the first opportunity I had to really apply what I was learning to be able to really, um, be with sadness or be with anger, you know, really, really process my emotions as energy and not let them just, you know, get stuck in there. And, um, doing that helped me realize that, if I could do, help one person, you know, not have to go through what she had to go through or, you know, she didn’t feel she had the resources or the support in order to get. I hope that I help and I now look back on my, you know, 17 year, full time but 23 year career of an author, and and I think I’ve helped more than one. So it feels really good to know that that you know, that kind of sparked it all.

Alison: So what a beautiful what a beautiful story. And I’m so sorry about your sister.

Christy Whitman: Thank you.

Alison: So so sorry. Um, you know, uh, I’m going to be full disclosure, so Jean’s  laughing already because she knows I, um. When I first started reading the book, I felt a certain amount of resistance, because I feel like, um, when, you describe a lot of personal things in the book, your son being transverse, your son’s operations. And I thought, well, how great for you, honestly, how beautiful that it worked out. But there’s a woman somewhere that it didn’t work out, maybe doing the same exact things that you’re doing. And my fear is, does that person feel, Ohhh I really screwed up? I should have just been…. I let fear come in. I let doubt come in into my thoughts. I wanted my son to be in the right position for the birth and I, I, I connected, and I felt like it was going to happen and then it doesn’t.  I feel shy about the idea of putting it on the person, because they’re all really feeling bad already.

Christy Whitman: Yes, yes.

Alison: Can you help me with that?

Christy Whitman: Yes, So first of all, I love that you’re you’re asking this question. I love that you’re bringing this up because that’s why in the book, and I believe the journey that I went through in writing that book and the examples that I use about, you know, beat Shazam and wanting to go out, like having a desire and not having it come to fruition.

Alison: Yes…That’s fantastic.

Christy Whitman: In the end, you know, it’s like if someone could look at the book and I actually had people go, well, then it didn’t work. You, you had this desire and you applied all the principles and the thing that you ultimately wanted to do when applying these principles is get on this show. But you didn’t get on the show. You didn’t ultimately win the million dollars. Right? I’m talking, you know. Right.  so, um, but the energy that was created in applying these principles, it didn’t come in that form, but it came in other forms and in other opportunities. And, you know, so a lot of times we get very attached to it looks like this, or it has to be that, or I really want this. And when that form doesn’t, you know, we don’t hit the exact target or it’s not this thing or that doesn’t manifest, know that the energy never gets wasted, right? That just gets like to be the, the focus. But the energy is still set up. So, you know, when someone is and especially if someone has something that is, you know, traumatic or where they’re deeply grieving it, like it could be a loss. The way to work with this whole entire thing of energy is understanding that there are energies or there are, um, emotions. Let’s just call it, like look at it like a piano keyboard, right? There are lower level vibrations there are higher level of vibrations.

Christy Whitman: And there are universal things like grief. And it could be a grief of I didn’t hit that, I didn’t get that manifestation. So there’s a let down, right?  or there’s a there’s another level of disappointment. There’s grief happens. Even when we we wanted that house made an offer on that house. We visualize ourselves in that house and then someone else gets it. And now there’s that letdown, right? That emotion, that letdown, that anything that’s in negative, lower level emotions. Right. There’s processes to help us release those energies so that we can come back and be neutral. Because if I, if I look at and how I interpret, interpreted and have lived with what I learned from Terry Cole-whittaker is that it’s the law of sufficiency and abundance. So if we’re feeling bad, you know, and we’re, say, disappointed with something, but we don’t process that disappointment, that disappointment creates an imprint to create more attachments or more attraction to more things that disappoint us, more people or situations, because that’s the vibration that we’re at. So we need to process those lower level energies. And we don’t do that by going, ah, you dummy, why did you put yourself out there again? Oh, see, things don’t work out for you, might work out for her, but it doesn’t work out for you. You know, other people get what they want… like all of those beliefs, all that stuff.

Christy Whitman: So it’s not a time to beat yourself up. It’s a time to let yourself have compassion. And compassion is that second bucket, if you will. Like the the lack that never feels good. My cliff notes version of of lack. You know you you’re in lack because you do not feel good. It always feels bad.. It just feels horrible. But then thoughts of abundance, right? Something you’re excited about, something that’s, you know, look, you’re looking forward to something, you know, you have an abundance of something that always feels good. But a lot of times it’s hard to go from lack into abundance. So that sufficiency and abundance, it’s that second bucket of compassion, sufficiency. Sometimes it’s just saying to yourself ah, okay, I’m okay. Like that moment of, it’s going to be okay, like that, take your breath, ground yourself. That allows you to come back into that neutrality, so that you can then have the higher vibrations available. Because if we’re in lack, they’re not available. They’re in two different vibrational scales. It goes back to that conversation we were having with having. If you’re want you’re wanting love, abundance, success, you know, freedom, whatever that is. And you’re in like, I don’t have, I’m lonely. I, you know, I don’t have enough. Oh, God, what about the future… When you’re in there, which a lot of people do, and and and believe me, I lived with master teachers of that.

Speaker2: My mom and dad are like the masters of that… you could be in Paradise and still complain, you know? So I learned from the best and I was, you know, I, I really had to disconnect myself from that. And still, you know,  I always equate it to like, a junk drawer. You clean out the junk drawer, and then somehow you still, like, it junks back up like… Yeah. So it’s like every once in a while, I still got it, you know, putting out my junk drawer and of of thinking in lack or, you know, projecting into a future that is scary or, you know, I’m worried about because, we have access to all this energy we have access to, to just the energy of calm, peace, compassion, soothing. And then once we’re there, calming whatever we need to calm, you know, then we can look towards, okay, what do I want this future? Because our now is creating our future,  and our past has a big influence on that future. Based on what are we holding it or are we letting it go? We surrendering it? Are we staying stuck in that negative energy and staying stuck in that lack? Or are we finding our neutrality back into that, okay, this is sufficient. This is okay. I’m all right. Right. Yeah. And then proceed from there.

Alison: So, so glad you said that. I’m so glad you explained that. Because when I got to the end of the book, I was like, yay!

Alison: Like, it’s perfect about the surrender. I was so happy that you that you summed it up that way. And you know, we have we have a mutual friend that wanted a boyfriend more than anything, more than anything. And  once she said to me, I have no love in my life, I have no love in my life. And I said, you have two kids. And she’s like, yeah, but that’s different. And I said, it’s like, I think what I loved about what you said, is you you have abundance… It may not be what you look, it looks like over here- but she did have love in her life. And the minute she kind of leaned into that, this boyfriend popped in.

Christy Whitman: That’s how it happens.

Jean: Yeah, that’s how it happens. But also, the same friend we’re thinking about, um, also when she said, and i remember the day she acknowledged, she said, you know what? If I never get a guy,  I’m okay. I am enough. And then literally, she, I don’t know what happened–.

Christy Whitman: Just in a minute. And now they’re so happy… Yeah. And it’s exciting.

Christy Whitman: It is because, you know, it’s like once you get into that– I’m not desperate. I had a client, God bless her,she was just so cute. One time she said to me, listen, I have a vision board. I have my affirmations, I’m doing my meditations. I am fully like, you know, I am into it. And she’s like, where is he? I’ve been waiting forever. You know, it was like, that’s a totally different vibration. You know, you got still that that if it’s impatient and there’s desperation that’s still a vibration– it’s called split energy. So it’s like, I want to but, I want them but,  you know, he’s here I feel him but he’s not you know, it’s that split energy and it’s acknowledging that part, that part that is impatient because when we can go, okay, what are you impatient about? What’s the i gotta have them now because I’m not… I’m not enough or my life can’t start until. Or all the things that we say… Until we have that amount of money, or we have that accomplishment, or we’ve gone on that show and did this or that or, you know, whatever the thing we project out and that’s, I mean, that’s really the key to life.

Christy Whitman: I have a dear friend who, um, has been financially very abundant.  Her husband retired in his 30s. They, you know, had lived a very affluent life and just recently had, um, you know, it was a –it’s a different way of life. And so they don’t have a house anymore, which, you know, they they’re renting a house, but they don’t have that security that she used to feel and dependent to. And she’s saying, well, I can’t feel secure again until we have a house. And I’m like, but you’re you’re basically putting what you have accessible and available to you right now. And what you choose is to feel how you want to feel. You, of all people, know what it feels like to be secure. There’s a lot of people out there that have had financial, you know, despair all their life and they can’t connect to that feeling of affluence or, you know, abundance, or they have a harder time because they just don’t know how. But you’ve already have that those memories of that security, of that love of freedom, the passion, whatever it may be for any of us and and being able to connect in as best as we can. That’s where that, you know, almost like that, f…ake it till you make it. When you’re working with energy, you don’t have to fake it, because if you start imagining it and then you start partnering with that energy, it’s very real.

Speaker2: And then you’re so satisfied that that’s where, yes, you still have to take action as part of us in our roles and, you know, part of our consciousness. We move, we have a behavior, we do something. We are a cooperative, like we say in the book. Right? It’s like we’re a cooperative component in the manifestation, right? There’s life force moving through us individually and collectively. So to create, you know, to have experiences, to expand into love to I mean, there’s a lot of reasons, but moving in that direction of focusing on what we want and why we want it, and then feeling as if we have it now, I’m secure now. That then draws it to us instead of repels it from us. And most people are living like that. I’ll be happy when you know when this happens, or I feel like you know something’s gonna happen. It’s, it’s always out in the future in which we’re disconnected from. And like you were saying about your friend, she connected in, it was like it surrendered it. And and it’s like, you know what? Wait. I do have love. I do have freedom. I do have security. I do have abundance. Look for what we do have what’s right and good is the way to go into more abundance.

Alison: That’s beautiful.

Jean: Yeah. Beautifully said. Um, I want to circle back to something you said before, Christy, about, when you’re not feeling good. You are entertaining thoughts of lack and fear. Something to that effect, right? I think, I think that’s so powerful because it shows, you know, that our bodies are, um, tools to to guide us. Hey, I’m feeling really low right now. What am I thinking? I mean, it takes that time to say, oh, I’m, i’m actually worried about my child right now. I’m worried about the stock market. I’m worried about if I’m going to find a place for my mother to live, you know, and that’s huge.

Christy Whitman: It’s everything. It’s everything. Because when you really think about it, and this is what I love about what the council brought through, who I’m a messenger for…. when you really break it down, it’s like we’re only responsible, and the only thing we really can control is our own consciousness. And what is our consciousness if we really break it down, it’s what we say, the very words that we say have power, right? The thoughts that we think and entertain, the conversations we’re having in our heads, the images, you know that the even just the self images, how I hold myself in relation to– it could be money, success, a relationship, whatever it may be when we see ourselves, in a successful relationship with money, career, whatever it is, then we usually manifest it. But if we are fighting it or can’t see that, can’t connect with it in our consciousness, it’s so far away from us. Or it’s almost like you’re talking about another life or another human being– someday when you know. Right? So it’s it’s our words, our thoughts, our pictures, our images, our beliefs. Right? Perspectives. There’s lots of way of saying that, our emotions, our feelings and then our actions and beyond that, anything else that spirals around us and in our orbit… it’s our, um, energetic attachment that creates a reaction from us. And so if we don’t like the reaction, if we don’t, you know, if we’re not feeling good and we don’t like the thoughts that we’re thinking about that thing, we can change it. It’s amazing.

Jean: The good news. Yeah.

Christy Whitman: It is. Yeah.

Alison: Right. Yes it is. Yeah.

Christy Whitman: I remember years ago, my husband, um, when I first met him…  he lived in, he’s Canadian and I met him and, and when I was in the States and then I moved to Canada in Montreal with him. And he was always so resistant about paying taxes and almost, almost so that it’s like he knows he needs to, everybody needs to right..  it’s like death, right? We’re all going to go through it and no one gets out of this alive. Unfortunately.

Jean: I used to have a teacher that said, there’s only two things you have to do, pay taxes and die.

Alison: That’s right.

Christy Whitman: Very true and another thing that’s also consistent is that there’s always transition. We’re always in transition. Right. It’s like nothing ever stays the same. We’re always in this place of transition. So if we know these things right, but one of them is taxes. We have, we need to pay that. It’s important. But the perspective of —   I make all this money.. How come I… You know, it reminds me  a Friends episode, when she gets her first job and she opens up her paycheck… She’s like, whose FICA? Why’d they take all my money, right? You know, that’s a perspective of like, hey, how come i gotta pay all this, right? Or there’s a different perspective of, when you pay taxes this goes to, you know…it’s your protection, it goes to fire, it goes to police, it goes it goes to the nice roads. We had a child that went into the hospital and, you know, I didn’t have to pay anything because we lived in Canada. I mean, it paid everything. It was like we had to pay a lot of taxes. But for me, it was like, I am so happy to pay these taxes because they took care of my son, right?  so it’s a different way… If we have resistance on anything, it could be mother in law, it could be money. And and a lot of people do, that resistance creates our reality. But if we if we make nice, you know, if we’re kind of pushing a reset button almost on, um, you know, everything we learned about money or money bad, you know?. Then then we could create our own energetic connection. Then we create our own quantum field, our own reality, then our own, our own, you know, life we’re living.

Alison: So when you just said that, like, like it’s interesting because I think people think sometimes, um, about the house, the purse, the relationship… But you might be in a relationship right now, that is challenging. And  you’re, saying you can switch that.

Up, even if the other person doesn’t participate.

Christy Whitman: Indeed.

Alison: And the way to do that is fill in the blank.

Christy Whitman: Connecting with your own energetic connection, connecting with yourSelf. Because what happens when we are relating with others, and the way we learn is, I do something and mommy goes, yay! Right.  We look for reactions of, if I do this, mom’s not happy, if I do this… if I get good grades, mom’s happy– if I get bad grades…, you know, or dad, you know. The conditioning, the conditioning starts, and we get very cemented in our learning desk, phone, computer. Right? So we don’t have to relearn these things, but we get concrete in the up, down, left, right, very polarized, good, bad, right? And so in that, we are always looking out for, am I okay, am I good, am I beautiful, am I, you know worthy, am I enough? What’s everybody else’s reaction is?  Am I being provided for? Well, maybe I don’t have what they have? Maybe I’m not enough? We we make it very personal. As if, well, I get, you know, I did everything I could, and I worked as hard as I could, and I still didn’t get it. So maybe I’m not supposed to be wealthy, or maybe I’m not supposed to be successful. Right? So we’re constantly looking out at how, let me survey everybody else to see how I am.

Christy Whitman:  What we need to start doing is understanding that, the idea that if they change or if the money was different, or if my outer thing would change, then I would be okay or happier. Fill in the blank. Right? So the alignment with our own multidimensional self. Right. And that’s even like the four bodies that we have here. Four bodies okay. You got your mental body, so your mind, you have your emotional body, the physical body which is a reflection of the mental and the emotional body. And then your energy body which is a reflection of all three. So you know, when we could be like, and we see I see this all the time as a coach, like someone spoke, I’ve been focusing on, you know, on being positive but like they’re angry inside, you know, or like that one girl, I’m like, I could see us being married, i see our kids, i have their names. Where is he? You know, that level of just something’s kind of off, right?  so in that scenario, if he would come, then I would be okay, and like with your friend, she got okay. And then he came into her experience. When we have resistance to someone that we’re in a relationship with, we have some kind of history with them. Right? We think we know they’re going to react this way. We start putting them in a box. We start thinking of them as this way, and as we do that, we see them, (I like to think of it as looking at an outfit… I love fashion, right? As you can tell from my book, when you look at an outfit, you might go shoe to tope, or you might go top to shoe, right?) When  we put someone in a box, it’s like we’re looking at their shoes and we don’t go up further, you know, we don’t see something that’s a full experience. We just put, we only see a very limited view of them based on our own past experiences. And so it becomes a they are this way. And that’s why it’s really important not to put labels on someone, because I hear this and it’s kind of dangerous. And my, you know, people say, well, he’s such a narcissist, okay, tat person is now in a label and they can’t ever change, right? Right. That he is the most selfish person I have ever met. You know, he’s a he’s oh, he’s a teenager. I hear that all the time. I have to catch myself too, because I’m like, I have two teenage boys. He’s really grumpy right now. Always being a teenager. Right. Well, my other one’s not grumpy. So what is teenage? What does teenager mean, right? Even questioning that, but that your own alignment with your own mind, your own emotions, your physical body and your energy body? Now you’ve got a focal point within yourself. And if you’re feeling good and you’ve got good thoughts about the other person, and you’re connecting with the total part of them, the soul part of them, right? The energy part of them, the parts that remembering the positive aspects and the reasons why you either fell in love or were attracted to them or wanted to be in a partnership or  the good qualities, right? I even, as a trick as my oldest son, I have I took a baby picture and I put it in a drawer in the kitchen because as he’s having some of his mood swings, I open it up and I look at the baby and I’m like, oh my God, I love him.

Christy Whitman: And then I’ll close the door back. You know, just a reminder because I need to put a boundary to not talk to me like that. Even though you’re grumpy, you know, it’s like, I don’t need to be talked to like that. And then I have to remind myself, okay, reset button. You love him, you know? So. B it’s alignment with ourselves. I have completely changed my relationship with my mother. Um, where it used to be just totally critical. And now she’s my biggest cheerleader. And I will tell you, she’s she’s she’s the 88 year old woman has never done any type of energy work, personal development therapy, doesn’t understand coaching or law of attraction or any of that kind of stuff. So if our relationship can be changed by one, you know, there’s lots of evidence of that.

Alison: So you have baby pictures of lots of people in that drawer. Yeah. hahah

Christy Whitman: No, just my son.  hahah…That’s the junk drawer. The stuff with all these things.

Alison: Right. Exactly,

Jean: I love that. Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s so true about our perception, right?  you know, like, shifting our perception about a situation–

Christy Whitman: Anything or everything. Yeah.

Jean: So you really champion and I do too, getting an alignment with your higher Self  How? If you had to share, Christy, and please do, what are two ways someone can get centered rather than feel scattered?

Christy Whitman: I love that. Yes. Thank you for asking that. So meditation, I mean meditation is one of those tools… that it’s like go into the gym, pick lifting up weights. If you do it consistently, it’s going to, it’s going to affect you. Right. It’s going to your body will change. Meditation is the same way, when you do it consistently, when you’re in struggle, when you’re in a place of resistance and surrendering it and going into a quiet place, that will help you go from such a outer, um, focused expression, to an inner and, you know, really coming into the interior of who we are, it’s just an essential, it’s essential key piece of, at least from my life, that’s what changed my life, and all of my clients lives, too, over the, you know, all these years. That the second piece for me, though, is really, um, energy mastery. And that’s one of the things that the council and I teach, and it could be as simple as changing a word. Right? If you say, I can’t or I miss or, you know, a lot of I’ll try or, you know, these words that are, um, low vibration, that constrict energy.  Mastering your energy could just be, you know, changing from I can’t do that right now or I just can’t handle it to, you know, i choose not to handle this anymore. I choose not to have it this way. I choose to make it different. Right? It’s very different than feeling like a victim and I can’t.

Christy Whitman: So energy mastery processes are important and one of my absolute favorites is literally like when you wake up in the morning and you have a conscious awareness that, okay, um, I’m alive. There’s a day, you know, that moment where you’re like, okay, um. Not just jumping into the day, but just sitting into the energy and feeling as if your soul is literally all around you. So because it is, and, you know, feeling, I like to feel as if I’m in my soul’s bubble. So like five feet above, five feet below, in front to the sides. And I just like to feel that, like, almost like I’m just nurtured and comforted in that energy because that’s, that just starts a nice soothing, you know, it’s like pushing a reset because it is, it’s like a push pushing a but most people go, oh no, I don’t have enough time. I didn’t get enough sleep. I didn’t, you know, we immediately get into that thinking lack. Right. So this kind of just gives a moment to just stay present and then connect with your soul and then, um, to turn up the volume on that a little bit, too, is that your soul represents every vibration, nothing lower than compassion because it doesn’t connect with negative emotions at all. It’s a completely just human experience that the soul just goes, okay, you’re on your own even though it’s still there. We have a different level of focus and awareness.

Christy Whitman: So now, it’s as if it’s it could be behind us, but we don’t see it. Right? It’s like the sun, we know it’s going to come out tomorrow, but at night time we don’t see it. We know it’s there. Right. But um, but it’s, you know, it’s it’s remembering when you’re in a dark place or in your negative place that bring in the, the the energy of compassion of your soul that will help neutralize you. But if you’re waking up and you’re feeling good, you’re connecting with your soul. Today you might go today, i want to feel joy, right? Today I’m intending, you can play every day, you can choose a different energy, essence, vibration. It’s like today, I would just will feel joy. Everything i’m going to think about, everything, i’m going to speak about, everything…. I’m going to visualize, I’m going to appreciate, and I’m going to be in this vibration of joy. And then, I like to imagine that my soul just becomes that bubble of joy. And then it’s like I’m floating in joy all day long, or freedom or passion or, you know, whatever I choose for the day. So that’s, and the fun thing about that is that, you know, if you feel like a dip during the day, it’s like, oh, turn up the volume again, right? Reconnect back to the soul, like really reconnect and calibrate back to that energy, tune back into it. So that’s a couple processes.

Alison: That’s beautiful, and I have to say, Jean knows this, you’ve been so great to talk to because, i had the conundrum, as we talked earlier of like sick mind, sick body… You’re responsible, you got to stay on it. But I love what you’re saying, because what I’m hearing is you’re allowed to have the human experience. You’re allowed to have all the emotions. Just don’t live there.

Christy Whitman: Yes.

Alison: You know, you can have it all and you can grieve. You can be disappointed. You can be afraid. You can doubt. Just don’t live there. Acknowledge, feel compassion and pick your bag up and move away.

Christy Whitman: Exactly

Alison: And that makes me feel very confident,  that I can do that. You know, and I was thinking when you were just talking, another friend of mine was talking about an argument that they had with a loved one, and they were arguing. And I was thinking, how funny would it be if they said to that loved one, I’m in such joy that you can express yourself this way. Do you know? hahah

Christy Whitman: It Neutralizes everything.

Alison: Like  I think that’s a great thing to just, I’m going to feel X today and just carry it through and see where it takes you.

Christy Whitman: Yes…Trust yourself, Don’t trust me. Try it. You know, do it yourself because…

Jean: that’s right..Try it or deny it.

Alison: Right.

Christy Whitman: Exactly… And you know, I got to say this, this was a really big, big deal for me. I remember during 2020 when everything was in lockdown, we were all locked down and I was bringing food to my mom and dad. My mom and dad have always had a very loud, uh,  very arguing kind of relationship. And so, my mom answers the door and she’s literally yelling at my dad, who’s now in the next room as I’m, like, handing her the food. And I’m thinking to myself, this is going to be short. Yeah. So so I’m like, okay, I’m going to come in and give you the food. So I come in and he’s yelling at her and she’s yelling at him. And normally my old MO would try to be like, okay, go back. You know, like play referee, go back to your neutral corners.

Alison: Right, right.

Christy Whitman: And I just kind of sat down at the table and I was hearing them and I just let myself feel compassion because these are two people that have spent, you know, six decades together at this point. And, you know, this is the way they show love. And so, I was just letting myself feel compassion. And then I was feeling compassion for the younger part of me that couldn’t escape that, right. I was just letting myself feel that compassion for my inner child. And then, as I was doing that, I was remembering her being like, someday I’m not going to have something like that. Someday I’m going to have. And so then my attention then went into appreciation and gratitude for my husband and my relationship. And then I started thinking about my boys and the kind of environment they live in, and what they get to see between my husband and I and as all of this is happening, the two of them stopped arguing. They calm down, I know, came and sat next to me at the table, and I stayed there for almost about three hours. And we had to this day, that was one of the most deep conversations I have had with. And now my dad passed, uh, May 1st this past year. Um, and I went through this whole grieving process, right, as we all do. But it’s like, that allowance of all, I go through it quicker because I allow myself to feel it. But to this day, that conversation and, um, fond memories we brought up and, you know, the level of conversation and connection that will be a moment that forever changed my life because I didn’t have to fight it. I just let, I allowed and I let myself be neutral to what was happening and that neutralizing and then getting into that appreciation, I created that energetic vibration. I didn’t allow myself to get pulled down by it.

Alison: That’s fantastic. Because, you know, there were two Christy’s, the first Christy trying to fix it. Yeah. You know, and arguing. No no, no. Stop. She didn’t mean that. Wait. Sit down, sit down. And then the Christy who was peaceful. Yeah. And just allowing.. I love that. I’m going to do that. Do you want to move in? Come on in.

Christy Whitman: I hope everybody does this because it does, it just changes the world when we do this.

Jean: You know that’s how powerful we are, that’s how powerful our souls are. When we love without any, um, judgment– rather than thinking or saying, she shouldn’t be asking that. That’s too loud. Right. You came in just non-judgmental –  neutral, and it was like letting the love in…

Alison: letting the love heal it.

Christy Whitman: But it’s true. When you’re in that energy of compassion, you’re not in criticism or judgment. It’s devoid of that, you know? And  that’s where even within ourselves, if we can learn self compassion, that’s the biggest opportunity that all of us have. Instead of, you know, I like to say, instead of, you know, taking the beating stick and continuing to beat ourselves up for something we should have done different or didn’t do, or, you know, something we have no control over changing now. We’re still beating ourselves up. Instead of that, put down the beat stick and, you know, pick up the magic wand and start going, all right, what do I what do I want to create? You know, like a fairy godmother. I want to create joy. I want to create love. I want to create connection. You know, it’s the choice. We’re using this mechanism anyway. So we could either use it in our favor or we can use it against us. But either way, we’re using it.

Jean: So. Right.

Alison: Thank you so much. You’re you’re so fantastic.

Jean: You so are.  You deserve all the praise. And you have gotten a lot of praise, but you so deserve it. Christy, your book is so helpful. Wherever you are in your conscious evolution, this book will speak to you. And I could talk to you all afternoon.

Alison: Yeah, I want to go to lunch with you or something.

Christy Whitman: Yeah, let’s do it. I’d love to.

Alison: So thank you so much.

Christy Whitman: Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate you both a great day.

Alison: You too. Bye bye.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: I thought she was fantastic and she answered so many questions and she was so present. And really, it was great, wasn’t it?

ALISON: Hi.

JEAN: Hi, there.

ALISON: How are you doing?

JEAN: I’m great.How are you?

ALISON: I’m really wonderful.

JEAN: Do we always start off our podcast this way?

ALISON: Yes. How should we start?

JEAN: Salutations!

ALISON: All right..Salutations, Miss Trebek. Anyway, how are you doing?

JEAN: I’m good.

ALISON: Yeah. You look good.

JEAN: I love seeing you, uh, two, three days in a row.

ALISON: I know. This has been a really busy week… We usually do not.

JEAN:  Right.

ALISON: this has been a very busy week and it is a busy month for us.

JEAN: Which is nice.

ALISON: Very nice.

JEAN: And, uh, today we get to talk with Dawson Church.

ALISON: I know I’m very excited because he’s very interesting to me.

JEAN: Yeah, uh, he’s very interesting to me, and before we get into how brilliant this man is, he has the best laugh.

ALISON: Does he?

JEAN: Yeah.

ALISON: Oh, good.

JEAN: I love his laugh.

ALISON: Oh, good.

JEAN: It makes me laugh.

ALISON: Okay, so that’s what we’re gonna do.

JEAN: It’s just a deep, joyful… Don’t take it all so seriously, laugh.

ALISON: Oh, I love that.

JEAN: Yeah, yeah.

ALISON: He’s had an incredible past and career. Right?

JEAN: Yeah. He’s a scientist, a spiritual visionary, and just an all around brilliant human being.

ALISON: He’s authored so many books, hasn’t he?

JEAN: I think about ten.

ALISON: Wow.

JEAN: I think about Ten books, and, uh, he what else? He’s been the founder of the Veterans Stress Solution, which, goodness knows, we need to help the veterans.

ALISON: He studied PTSD and anxiety disorders and depression. And now he, the book that we just read, Bliss Brain, is all about meditation and creating a flow in yourself to, um, relax your brain and relax yourself. And he can he says it can change your neural pathways.

JEAN: Right.. So I look forward to having him, uh,

ALISON: Change our pathways.

JEAN: Yeah. Right.

ALISON: Yeah… Do it!

JEAN: Do it…Well, this is an honor to have him… He has so much to offer. So enjoy this interview.

ALISON: Here we go.

Dawon Chruch: Alison and Jean. Hi.

ALISON: Hi. How are you? It’s so nice to meet you.

Dawon Chruch: Yeah. Good to connect with you.

JEAN: Can we call you Dawson? or Doctor Church?

Dawon Chruch: Dawson? Yeah.

ALISON: Okay. I’m Alison,

JEAN: I’m Jean.

ALISON: And we’re so taken with your books and your career. It’s very exciting what you’re doing. And my my eldest child studied neuroscience in college, so I was so fascinated by everything you’re discovering with your FMRI. And I just I just am so excited. What what took you down this path? How did you start initially?

Dawon Chruch: Uh, just my own personal issues, because I was anxious and depressed and wanted something to fix myself with. And a lot of people in therapy and personal growth are, first of all, trying to solve their own problems. But then as I began to discover energy therapies and how quickly they work, like what you see, you know, like a Vietnam veteran who’s had flashbacks and nightmares for 45 years, and you do some work with him and suddenly, like in two sessions, they’re gone. Just amazing. So it was then it was like a motivation to get these therapies, lots and lots of people. So that’s my focus now.

ALISON: And then you combined a lot of them right into one.

Dawon Chruch: Yeah. So EcoMeditation is my, I was really um, I had the same problems most people have, which is that your mind wanders, you close your eyes and think about all kinds of other things. It’s hard to sit still. And so I, I realized that all of these techniques are good, but if you layer them all into a single composite technique. So tapping, mindfulness, self-hypnosis, biofeedback, neurofeedback, and you do all of those like one after the other, the the effect is powerful and then you’re able to meditate easily. So that’s why eco meditation has been so popular, because, um, it allows people who just couldn’t meditate before to get into that deep state. And usually the first time they do it. So it’s a lot of fun to watch them again.

JEAN: I did your meditation this morning and I really enjoyed it. And I felt my.. everything calming down and and I thought it was a beautiful meditation. And I thank you for offering it for free on your website. Um, that was that was a treat.

ALISON: Do you do do you do that every day?

Dawon Chruch: Every day I personally meditate for about an hour and a half every day, and I do just because it’s so much fun. It’s like not an effort. And it’s not like, in fact, what it’s hard to do after after a few years or a few decades of doing it, it’s, um, much harder. You know, we find this with, with people we’re training to like, we have a program called the Short Path to Oneness, where we’ll train people over the course of a year to really let go of their old patterns. and our problem, our challenge initially is getting people up there, but the challenge toward the last, like after the first six months, the challenge starts to be bringing them back down again because they become so enchanted with the places they’re going up there, that they get a little bit reluctant to come back and change the diapers and, uh, the laundry and, uh. hahahah

ALISON: So, so, so you’re making it that everyone’s house is a mess?

Dawon Chruch: Absolutely… That’s why the monks and nuns have people to take care of them. That’s right.

ALISON: Yeah. That’s right. Exactly.

JEAN: So, Dawson, I have a background in, uh, Science of Mind.

Dawon Chruch: Oh, yeah.

JEAN: And we are always talking about the power of your thoughts. Change your thinking, change your life. And I feel that so much of what you offer to the world is how powerful our thoughts are. And you also help people to really know how to think. Most people just think while, like crazy, non-supportive unhelpful thoughts. Can you can you talk about the power of our thoughts?

Dawon Chruch: Yeah, I love Science of Mind. In fact, I often speak at Science of Mond churches and our thoughts are powerful. And that whole approach in religion is is really meaningful and impactful to many people. And then what I’m trying to also bring in is science. So I’m trying to talk to the people who wouldn’t go to a church or wouldn’t look for the answers in spirituality, but would look for the answers in hard science or neuroscience. And so there is so much evidence that our, our, our brains, for example, aren’t the seat of consciousness. Our brains are transducers of consciousness from the field of all consciousness into local awareness. And so, um, there’s much more evidence showing that our brains work that way, that we tune into these great information fields. And not only are we able to do it individually, but as we do it collectively, as we have people all over the world doing it, then they’re all coming into sync with each other. And that’s what explains phenomena that are very hard to explain, like distant healing. How do you explain the effects of distant healing? How can a qigong master who’s a thousand miles away from a client affect them? But I’ve had qigong from a qigong master 2000 miles away, and it was like 8 a.m. in the morning when he was going to do his send his qi uh, energy to me when I was sick one day, and um, at 8 a.m.

Dawon Chruch: that morning, it was like a freight train of energy just hit me. It was so powerful. So how do you explain distant healing? There’s a lot of research on distant healing. How do you how do you explain that? And these the phenomena like information fields, like universal information fields, fields of consciousness in which we all participate. If you’re plugged in and I’m plugged in, then we’re plugged into the same field. And that explains things like clairvoyance and telepathy and psychokinesis that are otherwise, again, very hard to explain with conventional science. So there’s a lot of evidence for, for those things and our ability to be creating not just, um, reality inside of our bodies, obviously, but when we when we change our thoughts, then our hormones, our neurotransmitters change and they can change a lot. Like there’s a study that came out, uh, about 4 or 5 days ago and the researchers used AI to crunch unimaginably huge amounts of data, and they looked at the effect of one of the key components in in, in spirituality, which is emotion regulation. And monks and nuns and people who are meditators aren’t at the mercy of their emotions if they have a, you know, passing flash of anger or a moment of resentment or irritation, they don’t scream and yell.

Dawon Chruch: Uh, people who are poor at emotional regulation do scream and yell, but people who are good at it don’t. And so meditators tend to be really good at that. And they found that that ability to regulate your emotions, which is so key to self-transcendence and spirituality, was producing absolutely fundamental changes in the gene and gene expression in the cells of those people, and that these changes were the ones that were typical of long health span. In other words, they’re going to live long lives and those lives are going to be healthy. And so not obviously everyone who, um, has emotional regulation will live a long life. But the trend was extremely powerful for these genes to be for the gene expression to match the profile of a long health span. So it’s just wonderful to know that we’re literally shifting our bodies dramatically as we, um, engage in these practices and as we change our minds, as we learn techniques like effective meditation, as we learn to release our our negativity, as we shift our minds, we’re just, for example, where we’re reducing our cortisol. In one study I did, we saw a 36% drop in baseline cortisol in a week and doing energy therapy. So our minds do create molecules and create molecules and shift our reality that way.

ALISON: Is meditation the only way to do it or is there a way to stop negative thinking or fear based thoughts without meditating? Or does it just not create new neural pathways?

Dawon Chruch: There are several ways that are useful for stopping negative thoughts. One is to stop them at the source. And that’s why I recommend morning meditation. Because when you wake up in the morning, first thing we do is orient to the those great non-local fields of consciousness. We’re plugging into the the all it is, as the Buddhists call it, first thing in the morning. Then that’s going to predispose us to a good day. So we know our breathing patterns are going to change. Our cortisol goes down, our cell repair hormones go up, our neurotransmitters change. All these beautiful things happen in our bodies at the start of the day. And so we then are setting ourselves up for good day ahead. If we then use a simple energy routine like acupressure,  I teach EFT tapping, where you just tap on acupuncture points that then when you’re stressed during the day, will help return you to that baseline and stop negative thinking. So those are two practices-  meditation sets you up for the good day, EFT tapping for when you’re having a negative thought or an overwhelming emotion during the day, will return you to baseline fairly quickly and then you know if it’s too big, i mean, if people have been traumatized, for example, if they have ongoing psychological trauma or if they’ve been triggered, then they they may need help. We train practitioners. We train people who are they’re called clinical EFT practitioners. And they’re available and they’re they are able to handle those those big T traumas, major life events. And so we recommend people have a practitioner relationship as well, so that if your self-help methods aren’t enough, then you can bring in this expert help to move you through those issues.

JEAN: That’s amazing. Can you talk a little bit more about EFT? What does it mean? And what’s the science behind tapping.

Dawon Chruch: The science behind tapping is very simple. And when we get emotionally triggered it activates our emotional brain. So we have this big chunk of tissue in the center of our brain the limbic system, the thalamus, the hippocampus, the amygdala, other structures. And that’s triggered when we’re emotional. So if I get upset, if I get angry, resentful, blame, shame, guilt, all of those negative emotions are activating that part of the brain. And EFT is applying pressure to acupuncture points. And you simply tap on a series of 13 points and you actually remember the bad stuff. So we are not trying to suppress or move away from or avoid thinking about the bad stuff– I was working with somebody this morning actually, was a clinical psychologist, who was still having trouble with a lot of his own emotions. And, um, as I had him tap, he was saying, okay, now I’m feeling this emotion, now I’m letting it go. And I said, no, don’t let it go. Hold on to it. Let’s take a deep dive. Really feel that emotion because you, Mr. Smart, PhD, clinical psychologist, are really good at taling to yourself out of your emotions, and we’re instead just going to go back to when you were two and wailed and screamed and yelled and let your needs be known and felt your emotions. So I hadn’t really feel his emotions but tap while he was doing it. So now he’s tapping while he’s feeling the emotions. Now that limbic system, that emotional brain, gets all lit up in the center of the brain by those negative emotions. And now the brain gets a second signal coming in from the body, which is the soothing signal of tapping on acupuncture points, which calms people down. So when we had them hooked up to an EEG, we’ll see them thinking about that car crash, divorce, the economy, uh, combat whatever it is that most triggers them emotionally. And we’ll see on the EEG when they think about that bad thing, that chunk of tissue gets highly aroused in the middle of their brains when they start tapping. It’s actually almost miraculous to watch this on an EEG. That emotional midbrain just calms down, and then ten minutes later, the person’s talking to you about that horrendous event and they’re totally calm. And I’ve done this now  with thousands of veterans through our Veterans Stress Project. We’ve done it with people. And right now we have a project going on in Ukraine.

Dawon Chruch: We’re working with therapists in Ukraine, we’re training them. They’re doing it with people- like the one guy that, um, was in one of our calls recently in Ukraine. He was supposed to be on a call with us, and then he didn’t show up for the call. And we’re like, you know, why is he not not there for the zoom call was because the house next to him had been hit by it by a Russian missile, and several people had been killed or wounded there. And so, um, these Ukrainians are just subject to constant uncertainty in their lives and the threat of death and incredibly stressful. And they get this technique of tapping. And so they can, we find that even in extreme examples, we’ve had volunteers work with victims of the Rwandan genocide, of the Haiti earthquake, of, uh, of school shootings and various other, other places. We have volunteers in Israel. We have volunteers in Palestine working with people there. And we find that even in these, again, horrendous conditions, that it’s able to dramatically shift people’s levels of anxiety, depression and, and fear. And you just see that that emotional brain calms down. So it’s just tapping on these 13 points while you’re thinking about the bad stuff and the, the the internal mechanism is it’s calming that emotional brain.

ALISON: So you know, it’s funny because you think it might be counterintuitive that if you’re saying a bad memory or something and you’re and you’re hitting something, you know, my mind says that would reinforce it. But where I am hitting allows me… Tells my brain a different signal and says to relax. Is that right? That’s what I’m hearing, right?

Dawon Chruch: That’s right. The brain’s getting two signals. One signal is the memory of the event, and the second signal is the tapping. And so, it’s now getting one signal saying go to fight or flight. I’m thinking about the thinking about the bomb blast in Iraq. I’m thinking about the, uh, the home invasion. I’m thinking about being mugged in Central Park. I’m thinking about, uh, losing my home when my mortgage was underwater in 2008. So this one signal is remembering this bad thing, and it’s telling the emotional brain to go into fight or flight. Then in comes the second signal via the body saying, calm down. You’re being soothed over here by this rubbing or tapping on these acupuncture points. And when the body then pairs that soothing signal with the disturbing memory, it realizes that the memory is not a current threat to your survival, and it breaks the connection between the memory and going into stress mode. And when you break that, that association one time, it’s really interesting to watch this happen with people. So you’ll, you’ll you’ll work with them. You’ll you’ll do tapping with them. Talk to them again a year later and say, how do you feel about that event? And they’ll say, well, I might think about the event sometimes, but um, the emotional impact is, is is now low. All the emotional energy it used to hold is gone.

ALISON: May I ask just one more question on that? Uh, let’s say you don’t have a memory. But you have a fear, a phobia, a fear like a fear of spiders or a fear of flying or anything that isn’t based in a memory. Does this process still work?

Dawon Chruch: Actually, phobias are one of the easiest things to treat with EFT, and we have several randomized controlled trials and it rarely takes more than one session. Very, very occasionally it’ll take more than one session. But you know, fear of public speaking, fear of small animals like rats, mice, spiders and so on. Fear of flying. I once worked with a, i once walked into a big university to talk to the head of psychiatry there, and, i thought we were going to have a chat about research and other interests, and but she just summoned the colleague into the office and said, my colleague over here is a fear of flying. Work with her right now. I was like, okay, so it was affecting this other professor’s career because she couldn’t fly to scientific conferences and present her papers. And this is like maybe 2005. So I was before there was video conferencing. And so it was really impacting this researcher’s career not to be able to travel. And so, um, I just worked with her systematically. We, we tapped on all the phases of flight, like I got a score from her and said, well, how nervous are you? Zero through ten when you think about making, and back in those days, we made phone calls to the airlines to book our our flights, no online reservations. So she was pretty, pretty okay with, uh, with, with making the reservation just a 2 or 3. But then when she point of the flight, when she was in her seat and clipping the seat belt together, that meant I was trapped. Right? And that sound of the seat belt took her up to a ten. So I just kept with her on on that and a few other associated events around flying. And, um, she went right down to a zero on all of them and said, I feel just great now. So her colleague then said, this head of psychiatry said, well, tell you what, go back to your office, phone the airlines and make a reservation and she did. She wet out there, made a reservation, came back, said, I’m totally fine. So, um, it’s it’s not usually a long process to treat a phobia.

ALISON: Wow, You changed her life right there. That’s amazing.

Dawon Chruch: Where it’s really amazing is with people who are victims of abuse, you know, serious abuse, complex PTSD, like hardly anything but will budge. Complex PTSD when you’ve been repeatedly in a in an unsafe situation and abused or neglected and in EFT we have very specialized techniques. Now again, this is not self-help. This is like a trained clinical EFT practitioner who’s been through a long training program and passed lots of exams and lots of supervised training, but but we can work with people who have chronic, complex PTSD and see them just release all of that early imprinting. So it’s a wonderful we have this tool to do this now.

ALISON: Yeah.

Dawon Chruch: It is wonderful. And it’s wonderful that you are sharing this and getting the word out there. Um, Dawson, I want to talk a teeny bit about your new book, Bliss Brain, for a moment, and you share that,as we cultivate peak states, our brains rapidly rewire themselves for happiness. Can you talk? What are peak states and how do we achieve peak states?

Dawon Chruch: Yeah. Peak states are in secular terms, our flow in flow states, people lose themselves in the task and are in this really happy space as they’re doing whatever activity they’re doing. And then in meditation, we reach these extraordinary states. In the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, he calls them samadhi, and we reach these layers of samadhi. The lowest level is he calls n—- samadhi. And you do that in certain ways. And, um, then it goes all the way up to an ob– samadhi in the, the nine phases of samadhi. And Patanjali and a lot of the eastern writers talk about this. A lot of the Western mystics talk about Hildegard of Bingen, talked about this, the sense that the the like, the fire of God, poured through her body, into her head, over her face, out through her heart. And Rumi, I mean, Rumi, this mystic who just wrote this exquisite poetry about these ecstatic states. And so these mistakes are in that state. And now that we have the neuroscience to examine what’s going on with them, obviously we can’t put Hildegard of Bingen, a 15th century mystic, into an MRI, but we can stick a modern day Tibetan monk or a Franciscan nun into an MRI. And what we see in terms of their brain function is extraordinary. This one, um, this one particular much studied monk I talk about in Bliss Brain, and the researchers hook him up to EEGs and they haven’t then move into states of elevated compassion. He’s feeling global compassion. He’s one with you all. That is his levels of the brainwaves of happiness, gratitude and compassion. His brainwaves go up 700%. Wow, 700% sevenfold. And what we’re now doing is we’re reverse engineering a lot of this. Like, I have a course called The Short Path to Oneness based on both neuroscience and ancient practices.

Dawon Chruch: And we’re training people to do that. And it’s not taking us 10,000 hours. It’s taking us. I mean, a serious training does take about a year to start to reach these elevated states, but we find that even in a month, the first 30 days, we can get people into extraordinary inner states. Now, just getting there one time or a few times or for a few weeks is nice, but you want to learn to sustain it. So we want to teach people to reach the goal, whatever they want to. And then the challenge, as I mentioned earlier, becomes bringing them back down again. So our initial challenge in the first like month of the short path and oneness, we get them up there. The after about six months or a year, we’re working very hard in the opposite direction. We need them to integrate and bring that down, but we can and do. And so what we find is that after they’ve learned to ground and integrate these states into the daily lives, then they’re doing the laundry. They’re taking care of their kids, they’re taking care of their elderly parents. They they are the elderly parents. They are doing everyday lives. And again, when we hook them up to the EEG, we find they’re in these ecstatic states in everyday reality. So, um, like, I pretty much spend my day that way. I do meditation in the morning. That’s really intense for me. I mean, I just shake with energy. It’s so, so powerful. But a lot of my day is just spent, even in just regular work. I’m just feeling this just glow of radiant love and light all around me, even though I’m working on a spreadsheet. So it’s totally wonderful to live your life that way.

ALISON: When you get, do you get upset by things? Do you argue with people? Do you, does that happen to you?

JEAN: Do You honk your horn in traffic?

ALISON: Exactly. Does this happen to you?

Dawon Chruch: This is the finger I give people in Hawaii— hahahaha

JEAN: I can’t see people watching you and you flipping someone off… And they notice, that was Dawson Church!

Dawon Chruch: Yeah. We find that, um, again, me and the people we trained to get into these states and go through these courses, and we have some very simple courses that take you, like in a week and others that take a month. And this one, the short path to oneness takes a year. And so we find that people’s level of all of those negative emotions goes way, way down. And paradoxically, they are still bothered by them when they experience them because there’s not much else going on in their emotions. So they’re very calm, so they can be quite bothered when there are things that disturb them. But like I talked to one guy who’s been doing this now for like a decade and he said, yeah, you know, a few things every, every, every year a few things will disturb me. But I return to my baseline really fast. And so, um, they become imperturbable. Also, the part of the brain that coordinates emotional regulation has grown at that point to be enormous. And, um, it’s like in one study I talk about in my books, the this, this, this part of the brain is called the dentate gyrus. And it’s a little finger. But besides my little, little finger, it’s a little sliver of, of, um, of brain tissue at the base of the limbic system. And it can grow by 10% in meditators doing that kind of meditation 10% a month. Wow. So it, you know, by in three months it’s grown 30%. Um, in in six months has grown 60%.

Dawon Chruch: So they have a lot of tissue now. It doesn’t grow forever. I mean, it grows to a certain size. Then you have all the emotional regulation you need. But it’s not software, it’s hardware. It’s not just practice or habit. Now you have this physical hardware, neurological wiring inside your head for regulating negative emotions. So, um, that’s really when you start to reach the tipping point is when it’s not a mood regulation, it’s neurological wiring inside your head. And then there’s very little that can disturb you once you reach that kind of brain of equanimity. And like, like the Dalai Lama, I mean, he’s he’s just pretty much in a positive mood. Most of the time. And sometimes it’s dealing with terrible things like, you know, killings of of Tibetan monks by Chinese troops and, um, all kinds of setbacks since 1950, when he fled the country, he’s had to deal with being dispossessed and, um, all kinds of challenges. And yet he has this amazing ability and this, this resilience, because those emotional structures are so developed in him. So you want to develop them, and then it also makes you resilient. So you now have the structure, the hardware of resilience in your brain. So when you’re faced with the loss the recession, the divorce, the, um, unexpected death of a family member, you have this fundamental bedrock of this wiring in your head that’s going to serve you when you need that resilience.

ALISON: Why do you think that’s fantastic? Why do you think? Or in your book, you were saying that the reason we have fear and stress is because it protected us, you know, and that makes sense. Um, but do you think it’s worse now with social media and all of that, or is that a different kind of stress or, uh, so many of my, our friends, they just feel very stressed so often. And I’m wondering, do you see, what do you think is going on?

Dawon Chruch: Well, I think that there are a lot of messages that hit us if we watch the news, if we are exposed to social media. And so there are a lot of things that claim our attention and that aren’t very helpful to our peace of mind. And I think it’s worth I mean, it’s certainly worth knowing what’s going on in the world, but, you know, you need to spend maybe five, ten minutes a day doing that. You definitely don’t want to be doomscrolling and looking, you know, every.

ALISON: Yeah.

Dawon Chruch: Miserable message. And you want to be really what’s called. And again this term comes from immunology,  inoculating yourself. And there’s research showing that meditators. People who, using evidence based meditation methods, are inoculating themselves against bad news. And so if you have equanimity, sure, you go and read about climate change. I mean, just for example, one study that just came out showed that, um, every single month of last year was the hottest month of that month on record globally ever. So it wasn’t just an unusually warm year last year, every single month, all 12 months were the hottest months on record for that month ever since we began tracking temperature in the 1800s. And so, um, you know, I mean, is that is that a problem? You bet it is. Uh, you know, racial inequality, um, uh, sexual freedom, um, uh, income inequality, uh, war, poverty, the all these things are, um, are issues we need to be aware of. But does your getting stressed about them help at all? Not a bit. Not even one tiny little bit. In fact, the more stressed you are, the least likely you’re able to be effective. So you want to be effective. And that means staying calm. What we see in the research on monks is that, um, when they hear or are exposed to tragic news or human  tragedy, they have the same kind of emotional and empathetic response everyone does, actually more so,  their brain, uh, emotional response spikes higher than the average person when they, they are exposed to human tragedy.

Dawon Chruch: One of the ways that this is tested is they’re in a lab. They hooked up to an EEG, we’re reading their brainwaves, and then in a distant room somewhere else in the building, the researchers play a recording of a child screaming in pain. Now the monk doesn’t know there isn’t a real child, and the monk doesn’t know that, that he or she is being set up for this. But what we see is that that empathetic response, that that response to the the child screaming in pain spikes quicker than the average person, but that part of the brain spikes in activity, and immediately brain activity shifts into the part of the brain that handles practical details, tasks. And the monk is going to how can I help? How can I make a difference? So they have this emotional response. They are not Mr. Spock being completely devoid of emotion. There’s a funny episode of Star Trek where Star Trek in which Mr. Spock says, abandoned emotion, acquire logic. hahah

Dawon Chruch: That’s not emotion control, that’s emotion suppression. And and you know, it’s dissociation. You don’t want to do that. So these monks and nuns feel but they feel, and then they switch right away to how can I help? What can I do? So that’s the way it works in the brain.

ALISON: Yeah.

JEAN: I also heard you say that meditation helps people have more positive synchronicities in life. And I thought that was pretty, pretty amazing. And I’m and I can attest to that. I know that when I do my meditation in the morning, the day just seems to kind of click. Yeah, it doesn’t mean I’m not going to have challenges, but it just kind of.. There’s a flow to my day that it’s not so jagged,

ALISON: And you’re driving with your eyes open.

JEAN: Right, And I love that you gave synchronicity a good, um, you know, that was a big chapter. And that was that was wonderful.

Dawon Chruch: Initially, I thought that chapter in mind matter would be a little tiny short chapter. And I just talked about Carl Jung, and he believed in synchronicity. And, uh, then I’d go through it very quickly, and I was amazed as I got into the science of synchronicity and became the longest chapter in the book, because there’s so much science that shows that synchronicity is real, in all kinds of dimensions. And so, uh, the one giant study published in 2018 showed that meditators have more synchronicity, more clairvoyance, more clairaudience, more all of those ESP kinds of experiences in their lives than non-meditators. And again, their lives just seem to flow a little easier. It’s not that their lives are perfect. I mean, none of our lives is perfect, but um, and like people taking our courses say, you know, the days I didn’t meditate were just rockier. They just didn’t flow as, as, as as easily. What we find, too, is that word flow is comes up over and over and over again. Flow, uh, is the the secular counterpart to meditation. As you meditate in the morning, you are predisposing yourself to have a day spent in that creative state of flow.

Dawon Chruch: And so you’re in flow, much a much bigger part of the day when you meditate in the morning and your data seems to flow much more easily, you have challenges, you have obstacles still, and they seem easier and your creativity, in one study, we found that people’s creativity doubled after meditation in these flow states. I mean a doubling of creativity. Another study found that, uh, the ability of people to solve complicated problems, really hard problems went up by about 500% after they entered a flow state. So in flow, you look at a problem, i mean, I had a big problem this week in my work and, um, when I was first thinking about it and reflecting on it, I was I was really like, whoa, this is a massive problem. I mean, I couldn’t imagine how we would solve it. But I meditated, finished my meditation, and opened my eyes and looked around me and realized, oh, there’s this really easy solution I just didn’t see when I was all stressed.

ALISON: Wow.

ALISON: That’s beautiful.

Dawon Chruch: Yeah.

ALISON: Do you, do you think I know some people that have said, well, I don’t want to get rid of my anxiety because it’s a motivator, like, you know, the people that wait till the day before the homework is due to do the paper or that what would you what would you say to that? Because I know a lot of people that are working and they wait till the very last minute. What would you say to them?

Dawon Chruch: You may want to just conduct a little experiment to see how you feel doing it under stress, and how you feel doing it, not under stress. Now, one thing you can do is, there’s something going on there subconsciously that is, um, supporting that pattern. And so you can delve into that and do some EFT tapping and release whatever energy pattern there is there. Again, approach it from an energy perspective. I know for me, for example, I occasionally have big difficult tasks to do and the temptation is to do the small, easy ones first. Uh, but then you want,  you need to tackle the, the big hard ones. And so what I do when I feel like resistance coming up to, uh, doing the big hard one first, I do some tapping. I think about the task, I do some tapping, like I to write a whole bunch of, um, of copy for Facebook and Google. And it was apparently it was like this process normally would take about a, a day to write this, this particular set of copy for one our programs. And, um, I had a little copy there, and I just decided to tap and release all of the, um, energy I had around. Uh, this is a huge, big task. How will I do it? I’m running behind another deadlines, blah blah blah, blah, blah. So I did some tapping, I released, and I got into flow and I thought, I’ll just start the project. So I started it and two hours later in flow, I finished it. It was wonderful. Just all literally flowed. And so you, you notice your tendency is like being anxious or, or stressing yourself out. And after a while, you don’t want to feel that stress. You don’t feel bad anymore. And what’s happening to the brain in my book,  I talk about the seven neurotransmitters of both flow and meditation, and one of them is serotonin and serotonin is your feel good neurotransmitter.

Dawon Chruch: Dopamine is your go get them neurotransmitter, a motivational transmitter neurotransmitter. Go get this goal done and you get a reward if you have a rush of dopamine. Serotonin is, I got it done, i feel good now. And both of these really pleasurable neurochemicals rise in your brain once you got into the habit of generating these neurochemicals. So you have oxytocin. You have anandamide, you have beta endorphin, you have serotonin, you have dopamine. You start to feel habituated to feeling good. So I’m already used to feeling good. I don’t want to feel bad by stressing myself out. So the more you feel good, the more you want to feel good and see your new normal then becomes, you know, I want to feel good. And if I’m doing stuff to myself, let’s make me feel bad. I’m going to shift myself. I’m going to tap, I’m going to meditate. I’m going to walk in nature… In my book, Mind to Matter, i have like 30 things you can do. Go give someone a hug. Give yourself a hug. This is called the butterfly hug. It’s used in various kinds of energy therapies, and you just rub your own upper arms. This way generates delta and gamma waves in your brain. You also tap on either side like this. Just with kids a lot. A lot of tapping in schools. And this is just one of the things we teach kids to do is give themselves a butterfly hug. Just that alone will shift your brain function. So if you used to make yourself feel bad to motivate yourself, try feeling good instead.

ALISON: I love that.

JEAN: I love that.. That’s the new norm, you know? And the brain is is it’s such a muscle. Like, you know, if you don’t, if you just let it, if you don’t work on it, it’s just going to kind of be

ALISON: saggy

JEAN:  yeah, saggy…exactly. Yeah. That’s right. No more saggy brains, you know, but, uh, I, I love that. And, Dawson, do you have any thoughts about sound healing? Um, have you researched anything around that? I, I studied with a man, Tom Kenyon, about the power of sound healing.. Any thoughts on sound healing or listening to music? Do you think that good?

Dawon Chruch: yes, sound is vibration, like, um, thought is a  vibration.  various kinds of healing has been studied and they find that there like for example, there are energies that emanate from the hands of healers. Your own voice is a wonderful instrument for for healing. So humming, for example, is going to lower your blood pressure is going to engage your parasympathetic nervous system relaxation response. And so, um, so various kinds of, of sounds are really useful. Um, and I haven’t looked into the research behind sound healing very much. I know there are a few studies of it, but, um, use use vibration think, you know, we we tend to when we’re looking for healing, we have a problem. We have a diagnosis of disease. We tend to go very, very quickly to an external agent. And that external agent might be a drug. It might be a herb, it might be a psychedelic. And all of those things mean drugs are fine sometimes. And and herbs are great in their place. And psychedelics are sometimes useful. But the very first thing we should be asking ourselves is not what external agent should I stick in my body to feel better? The first question to ask yourself is how can I shift my energy myself? How can I change my vibration to love myself more, to care for myself, to nurture my cells, to heal my body? That’s the very, very, very first question to ask yourself and shift your energy.

Dawon Chruch: And then a lot of your physical stuff is just going to go away. Your physical problems will just many of them will just vanish when you are approaching it as an energy question, not as a material question. Now that has its limitations. Like for example, um, I had high blood pressure. I’ve had it all my adult life. And, uh, my doctor had put me on medication for high blood pressure, and I said, no, I’m, I’m going to lick this naturally. So I used I used tapping, I used herbs, I used, uh, supplements like the  beets, for example, lower your blood pressure. I did all the natural things, and I, you know, I lowered it maybe ten points or so, but it was still over, over the, the norm. So I actually had to go to the doctor after a few years and said, okay, I’ll take the medication. And I still take it. So, you know, uh, it’s not like we’re against allopathic medicine.

Dawon Chruch: It’s wonderful in its place. But to if you have an emotional problem, if you have stress that’s making your blood pressure high, going and getting a medication is then simply going to mask your symptoms. And it’s like putting, you know, the red light saying, check engine light is on on your dashboard and you just get a piece of tape and tape over it so you don’t see it anymore. So that’s so much of of modern medicine is like that. And people are unfairly asking their doctors to treat things that are emotional and spiritual. And so we have to look at energy first, look at our emotions. How are our emotions engaged? How what is our energy like? If I have this conflict of the stress, what is my energy in that situation? Can I change my energy if someone’s being mean to me or nasty, maybe they really are being abusive, but what is my energy? Uh, Jesus said, do good to them that hate you. In the Yoga Sutras in the eastern tradition, Patanjali says, be really nice to people who are really nice to you. And when people are not nice to you at all, be really nice. Be extra nice to them.

JEAN: Yeah, right. Yeah.

ALISON: That’s right. And that shifts the energy.

Dawon Chruch: Shifts the energy. What does it do for them? Who cares? What does it do for you? Reduces your stress. You’re giving yourself a gift.

ALISON: I find you very calming and very hopeful. And it makes me feel like sometimes I have felt, um, stuck in my head. And I just feel like after this conversation, very, very hopeful. So for people like me, um, I read Bliss Brain, and um, Mind over Matter. Do you do you think my next step would be going to your website and seeing what sort of courses would be useful?

Dawon Chruch: Yeah, we have a lot of courses that are targeted, like we have a relationship skills course, for example, that trains people to use tapping, meditation, active listening, nonviolent communication in their relationship. So it’s a relationship issue. We really recommend that. In fact, we recommend that that everyone take a relationship course like that. Because if you have skills, about 90% of the friction in your relationship vanishes. Even if your partner or your kid or your parent or whoever it is is doing nothing, they don’t have to change at all. If you shift your energy, then the whole relationship changes because we, our families are constellations and they are are our energy matrixes. And one person changes and the whole matrix changes. So we have we have courses for relationship. We have a fibromyalgia course. We have courses for weight loss. Uh, I don’t know how many clinical trials there are probably at this point, over 20, showing that people who use EFT tapping and and self-calming techniques for weight loss, like they’ll crave those potato chips, they’ll crave that ice cream, whatever it might be that their fatal food is, and you start training them to tap while they use it. We did one study with MRIs, and we found that people, when they’re exposed to images of those foods in the MRI, their emotional brain lights up.

Dawon Chruch: The the part of the brain that has to do with food does not light up. The part of the brain has to do with emotion lights up. So those foods are emotional. And when we stick them back in, the MRI is after tapping with them for a while. It doesn’t. So they’re they, they they not only do they lose weight, we now track them up to two years afterwards and their weight keeps dropping because they’ve now built this into their their behavior. So we have weight loss courses, trauma courses, uh, and anxiety course and insomnia course. So there are all kinds of resources like that on our website and are are certified practitioners. They’re highly trained. They’re if they’re up there on the website, they’re good because they have to go through a lot, a lot of training to get to be there. And if they’re there, they’re they’re they’re they’re able to help with things like like trauma, like like like prenatal trauma, early life trauma. And so there are so many resources available and we just don’t have to keep on suffering the way we used to. Like I, friends say to me recently , my friend said to me, Dawson, we are tapping. We have meditation, we can fix ourselves. My parents, they just suffered, and you don’t have to suffer the way our parents did. We have all of these these wonderful techniques. Eft now is being used by something like 40 million people worldwide in developed countries, Western Europe, places we can track statistics. About 1 in 5 people is now meditating. That’s up from 1 in 100. In 1980. So we’ve had this explosion in meditation, in stress reduction courses. And this is producing a radical global mind shift as well. It may not be obvious on the news, but, uh, human society is changing in a big way, led by shifts in consciousness. And we’ll we’ll live in a very different world than 5 or 10 years. And we live in now, just as a result of human beings becoming more compassionate, becoming more aware and looking out for that, uh, that all that is, that is the foundation of consciousness.

ALISON: Thank you so much.

JEAN: You you are giving us so much… Your website is called, Up Life.

Dawon Chruch: The best way for people to get access to that, is through a website called Dawson(my name),  Dawsongift.com

Dawon Chruch: Because then you’ll get a free download of the tapping manual of the meditation. And then that’s where all the practitioner listings are. All the courses are available from that. So that’s Dawsongift.Com is the best way for everything that I mentioned here.

ALISON: Great, great. Thank you so much. Can we talk to you again when you write your next book?

Dawon Chruch: Oh please do. It’ll be fine.

ALISON: I will love that.

ALISON: You’re really fantastic.

JEAN: Wonderful, brilliant man and spirit. So thank you for everything.

Dawon Chruch: It’s a joy to share. Absolute joy to do this.

ALISON: So thank you…Continue to have a great day.

Dawon Chruch: Thank you,

JEAN: Thank you.

ALISON: Bye bye.

ALISON: Oh my gosh, he’s amazing, right?

JEAN: He is. I call him Awesome Dawson.

ALISON: He needs a bumper sticker that says that.

JEAN: Yes,

ALISON: He is so… I felt like there are so many things that he was saying that I could definitely use help with, and things that I could definitely see myself benefiting from. His techniques and his books are fantastic because he really explains the brain, and he really explains how things like take a shortcut when you don’t want them to, when you want them. And I’m, I’m definitely going to check out his website more thoroughly and see how I can help myself.

JEAN: I yeah, why not? And talk about true self empowerment– that we can look within ourselves to heal, um, these thoughts and or what’s another word than heal, but release these thoughts and let the new norm be happiness. Not always be heavy hearted or slightly depressed and anxious. You know, it is a training.. Training, consistency, repetition. So, um, there’s that phrase that says your thinking is the beginning and end of suffering.. You know, it all starts with with your thoughts. Right? And most of us were not taught how to think beautifully and how to deal with our emotions and feelings.  So, um, and he mentioned that.

ALISON: Yea, And I liked his.. He was so positive and light, like you were saying earlier. His laugh. Yeah. You know, he just took it. Um, he really feels I feel his passion and I, I feel really these interviews… I’m just so amazed by all the human beings that are out there. And I love that he he resonated with what Sonia said, which is the world is a place that’s changing and consciousness and a higher consciousness. And, you know, we’re on an important journey here with all this, you know?

JEAN: Yeah, we are. And I’m so glad I’m in this journey on this journey with you, Allison.

Dawon Chruch: Me too. Jeannie, we hope you enjoy this and really check out his website. He said it was Dawsongift.

JEAN: Okay, great. And just one last thing. He also has a podcast called High Energy Health. And wow, he has some beautiful guests. So talk about sharing goodness in the world.

ALISON: So that’s right.

JEAN: Thank you Dawson.

ALISON: And right and let’s just start tapping. Let’s all just do it. That’s Jean tap dancing. Bye.

JEAN: Bye.