Podcast Episode 44: Lauren Passell & Devin Andrade – Tink Media

Alison: Hi.

Jean: Hi, there.

Alison: Okay, let’s try it again.

Jean: Let’s do it. We’re going to do it right this time.

Alison: That’s right. We are. We’re going to do it perfectly.

Jean: The ninth time is the charm.

Alison: It’s the ninth inning. This is all they get, you know? And we’re trying to make it perfect because the people we’re talking to are specialists in podcasts.

Jean: That’s right. The name of Lauren’s company is Tink Media. So, um, we get to interview Lauren Passell.

Alison: And Devon Andrade.

Jean: Very nice.

Alison: Isn’t that perfect? I love that name.

Jean: It’s beautiful. Well, both these people are beautiful and they are fertilizer for your podcast.

Alison: You know, I love that. Not the manure kind, though. The perfect, good, juicy fertilizer kind.

Jean: I didn’t know there was juicy fertilizer?

Alison: Yes there is. Take it from me. I’m from the Bronx, I know gardening.

Jean: Okay. Um, so, oh, of course you do.  haha –What was I thinking? I don’t know why i thought you were from the Midwest?

Alison: hahah- In those cornfields, I’d get lost. These two are so wonderful. They helped us with inside wink, and they gave us such great tips and ideas and got us on a more solid track, don’t you think?

Jean: Absolutely. I feel a sense of like, renewed passion for inside wink.

Alison: Me too. And I feel very confident. And I think because they give that off, they give off confidence and kindness and just they’re very accessible, right?

Jean: Yeah. And they make you feel you’re on the right track. But just here’s a couple of little tweaks to do.

Alison: So here they are Lauren and Devin.

Alison: We did it.

Jean: Yay!

Alison: Hi there. Hi, Lauren and Devin. How are you doing?

Lauren: Oh, it’s so good to see you. Hi. Thanks for having us.

Speaker2: great to see you.

Devin: Yes. Thank you so much.

Jean: We are  excited…. Really, this is a treat for us because you have been such a benefit to our podcast. And we can’t wait to share your wonderful organization, your company, Tink Media.

Alison: yes, we  have been so interested in you guys and we’ve done like a little bit of research and we’re interested in knowing why you think podcasts are so important right now? Like how many podcasts are there even millions of podcasts in the world? I don’t even — i don’t even know? Like everyone and their mother has a podcast and I’m wondering  why you think that is, and why is it important?

Lauren: Well, I think, and Devin will know the real answer, but I would say the number is humongous if you ask how many podcasts there actually are. But the number gets a lot, a lot smaller, when it’s how many are actually releasing episodes with, uh, on a regular basis and even smaller when it’s like how many people are actually caring about growth. That’s that’s actually a teeny number. But Devin, how would you answer that? Like that actually are putting thought into what they’re making? I think it’s a surprising number of people that just start one and you go and they have 1 or 2 episodes because they go and they go, whoa, this was harder than I thought, right? You can probably speak to that. But Devin, how would you answer that question?

Devin: I think I would answer it the exact same way. Like there are, there have been a lot that have released at least like 1 or 2 episodes, but the ones that are like consistently active and still putting out is not as high as some people like to joke that it is. So that’s why we also always tell people like, yeah, there’s a lot of podcasts out there, but there’s also still lots of space for more podcasts. So even though everyone and their mother has a podcast, don’t let that stop you. Because another thing I always hear too is like, how many books are there in the world? Oh, that’s how many new TV shows are even coming out. Like, I can’t keep up with those. But like all these other forms of media, there are so many to choose from. Podcasting is not different from that. I think people just pointed out with podcasting more because the barrier to entry isn’t as high. Like anyone can make a podcast, which I think is like a mostly a blessing, but can be a curse in some circumstances.

Lauren: Well, yeah. And also I think that means that there’s for listeners, there’s something for everyone, no matter what you’re looking for. There’s your community. Whoever you’re looking for, you’ll be able to find it because. Because the barrier to entry is low. You know, that means that whatever you’re looking for, it’s there.

Alison: Right, right.

Jean: So, Lauren, let’s talk a little bit about yourself. And can you tell us what got you so inspired to create this company, Tink Media?

Lauren: Well, I, I was a fan of podcasts before I worked in them. I worked in book publishing, but I was just a big fan and I think I started listening- i was injured on crutches, and I wanted something to listen to, um, because I liked reading and I was like, well, I want to do this, but I can’t read while I’m on crutches, so what am I going to do? Um, so. And then Serial blew up. Do you remember Sarah Koenig’s? Did you ever listen to Serial? Okay, so that happened shortly after. And that got me. Really? That became a moment. Um, Devin, were you a Serial person when it was happening or were you before Serial? What was your timeline?

Devin:  I was late to the Serial party. Like I probably listened in 2019. That’s so late.

Jean: I didn’t even get an invite to the Serial — to this breakfast party. I had no idea of this.

Lauren: It’s never too late, i was just recommending it to my mother because she loves true crime. And I was like,  it’s something I think anyone in podcasting should, should experience. But, um, you know, when I was at the book publishing company, I was not on the PR team, but the PR team would come up to me and say, Lauren, you love podcasts. We’re trying to get David Sedaris on some podcast to talk about his books. Can you pitch him? And I was like, yes, but why are you so bad at this? I’ve loved to do that. So originally I left. I loved that job. I was sad to leave, but I started this company because I thought, I think there’s something here. Um, just pitching authors to podcasts to get to talk about their books. That’s what my company originally was. And yes, I named it after Tinker Bell. I don’t know if we’ve talked about this yet. I’m a Disney nerd, and I never thought it would be anybody other than just me and my laptop. But, um, Devin was one of the first people I hired, and it really, I just needed somebody for this weird job. I was like, how do I even find people that love podcasts like I do? And I saw a tweet from Devin. I did not know Devin. I saw a tweet that one of my friends liked and it said, I wish someone could hire me to write about podcasts lol or something like that. And I DM’d Devin and I said, do you want to work for me? Because I just knew and it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made in my entire life.

Alison: Oh, I love that. Did did you know that, Devin, that you were like that, that that whole that little tweak got you the job? Like, did you know that?

Devin: I did, honestly, I was in shock because it really it was one of those things that you. I tweeted it out. I like threw my phone on my bed and I was like, yeah, that’s just a random thing. You tweet. And then like, I went about my life and then I think maybe like the next day or next couple days, I get a DM and I’m like, Why is Lauren DMing me? Like, I knew who Lauren was. I loved her work. I loved what she was doing in podcasting. And I was I was like, what is happening? No, this can’t be real. But it’s I’m so glad that Twitter was still a thing then, because if it was Twitter now, I like, what if I never met Lauren? That would be devastating.

Lauren: Wow, don’t say that. Now I have to be really grateful for Twitter. It’s so true. And I the thing is, I think I like everyone that works at Tink. I don’t look for people that understand marketing or PR. I look for people that love audio and podcasts and Devin loves podcasts more than anyone I know, and that’s because I think I like it when, you know, our goal is always to grow podcasts. I don’t need people that understand marketing and PR. I want people who can look at other podcasts like a producer. I want them to have a producer hat on, and that’s what Devin thinks. Devin thinks like a producer because she’s a listener. She likes to think what makes podcasts work and what makes them good. So that’s why she’s so good at her job. And that’s why I could talk to her about podcasts forever.

Devin: I feel like that story, too. It feels like it was just, uh, like dumb luck. But I also know that it wasn’t because I had been, like, learning about podcast marketing and wanting to figure out what my place in the industry could be if it wasn’t going to be making podcasts. I was like, there’s so many out there that might need support and like finding their audiences, and I could help do that. So I was trying to learn about Lauren’s work to the point where, like Lauren, I was watching like any webinar that you did. I was reading your newsletter. I remember there was one time I was, I had signed up for one webinar. I forget what it was about and you and Ariel were doing one at the same time. I think you were doing like a live thing on Twitter, and I was like, well, I’ll go to the one I paid for. And then partway through the one I paid for, I was like, this isn’t really helpful. I know all this stuff. So I was listening to you on Twitter instead, while this other webinar was happening because I was like, I’m learning more from Lauren and Ariel right now. I didn’t.,

Lauren: I didn’t know that -Oh my goodness.

Alison: Well, Devin, what were you what was your job prior to this?

Devin: I worked in digital media production and content production at a college in Toronto. So I was as part of that, I was doing video editing, I was doing social media, I was doing web development. And because I was listening to podcasts, I was like, we should have a podcast, we should do audio stuff. And the school I worked at, you know, it also had a radio program and had a journalism program. So I was also like paying attention in those spaces to like, what is the podcast curriculum look like right now too? And I did end up teaching a podcasting course at the college and creating a podcasting course at the college. And so all of that together, I was like in the digital content production space. And then kind of during the pandemic, when I wasn’t as busy, I was learning more on the side, and that’s how I came across Lauren’s work and kind of transitioned into the podcast marketing space.

Alison: Oh, that’s great.

Jean: That is great… Can you share with us what are some of the services that Tink offers?

Lauren: You want to go? Devin..

Jean: what would you like to be known for at Tink?

Lauren: That really good question. Um, what do we like to be known for? Oh my gosh. Well, there’s I wonder. Yeah. I mean, basically we help podcasts grow. That’s what I would say the baseline is. But the and the way that we like to think about that is, you know, we think collaboration with other podcasts is what works. And it’s actually what makes me love my job so much because guessing is a really collaborative space. Um, so, you know, that means it’s a lot of it’s a lot of partnerships, a lot of the best thing, you know, sometimes someone will come to us and say, can you spend advertising? Can you buy ads for us? Will help. You know, we have $10,000 to spend. We’ll buy their ads. We can’ do all those things. Um, we can pitch, you know, to media. We can do all those things. But I think our favorite thing is, um, finding other podcasts. And this is going to sound kind of cheesy, but I feel like I’m going to save space. So, um, finding podcast friends, that’s what we call them. We call them podcast friends. And we that we think, what are the shows where the audience is going to align because we really think works is borrowing audiences from similar, you know, space, similar audiences and borrowing audiences from them, switching things.

Lauren: So, you know, that’s setting up a promo swap, which is a 32nd ad for a podcast that you hear on another podcast, and we swap those and, you know, so finding these podcast friends and then we pretend to put them on podcast play dates and we say, how are these podcasts going to work together? What is it- like when you look at each one and we say, what are they going to do together so that we get our client in front of the this other audience? And, you know, so that’s I think what works the most, it’s it’s the way to get your most you know, you can buy an ad if you want. You’re not going to get those organic, you know, that organic growth and you’re not going to find those perfect listeners. They’re going to come back over and over again and be your biggest advocate and tell all of their friends about you. And honestly, telling friends is the best way to grow a podcast.

Devin: If someone tells their friends about you. It truly is the best way.

Alison: I,love that. Yeah.

Jean: And I loved also Lauren, I think. I don’t know if it was you or Devin, but, you know, I’m. I have an Instagram account and and you were sharing with me that it’s not always about me just saying, hey, we have Ed Begley Jr on our podcast this week or it’s it’s more that you want to address the audience that do listen to podcasts. So it’s getting your podcast in the pool of people that are interested, just not randomly shouting out, hey, this is what I’m doing. But I guess that can help. Yeah, but it wasn’t it wasn’t your go to for our Inside Wing podcast.

Alison: Yeah, that was a real revelation to us. You were so kind and ,oving and generous. How do you keep that going? Dealing with all these podcast people like you must talk to a lot of people. And yet we felt that we were the only ones that you that you dealt with.

Devin: I mean, I, I, I can’t speak for our whole team, but I think that because our team loves podcasts so much, we love the people that we get to work with. So it’s it’s easy, like it’s never something we have to think about where it’s like, how do we make sure they feel like they’re our only client? It’s because, like you, you are, you know, even though we’re balancing all these different ones, we care about all of them so much sometimes, like almost to our own detriment, where we just get so invested in our work and like, we want podcasters to succeed so, so badly. Like we want to help this industry grow because it also like it is so new. There is still so much that can happen that will evolve, that will get better for the listeners and for the podcasters. And I think that our whole team, like we just really care about helping that happen for so many people. So it’s because we genuinely care. We’re really excited about working with podcasts like we do research all the time, and we just get to explore all the podcasts out there. And then when somebody comes to us and they want to grow their show, we get excited about the possibilities and sometimes we– if you’re on a call with us or a meeting with us, sometimes we will just like go off with ideas and possibilities because we get really excited in the moment because we see the potential. We’ve seen it in action and seen it work, so we believe in it. So I think that all of those pieces together make it kind of easy for us to have that vibe all the time. I don’t know, Lauren, what do you think?

Lauren: Yeah, and i heard, I feel like I heard someone explain it like we’re in a playground, like because we have all these tools to work with. So when we get a show, it’s like we’re, we’re we’re at the playground with the show. It’s like, what tools can we use? What can we go on in the playground that can be like, fun and like make it work? And also, we are having a lot of fun. We like each other. Um, that’s huge. And the other thing I will say is, you know, podcast marketing, there’s a lot of people making podcasts. As we said, there’s not a lot of people growing them. There’s not a lot of podcast marketing companies. So we’re really lucky that, you know, I mean, just we have there’s a lot of people that need our help, but we don’t get we don’t have to work with just anyone. We wanted to work with you because we like both of you and we really like your show. Um, we don’t if we if someone approaches us and we don’t think they’re a good fit, it doesn’t matter. We don’t. We tell them we don’t. This happens. We say we don’t think we’re a good fit for each other. We want to be happy, and we want to make sure that we can help someone grow so that if we don’t think it’s going to be a happy experience. We don’t want to have sleepless nights, we don’t want to be stressed, and we don’t want to not help someone succeed. And we don’t want to help a show grow that we don’t believe in or we don’t like. So we don’t work with those people. So we’re pretty happy with our client. We love our clients. We love our clients. That’s why. That is why.

Jean: I love that you love that. And you can so feel that, Lauren. And that speaks volumes to you being the CEO. And of course, Devin, you’re, um, you’re just such a beautiful light over at Tink. Can you, can you share some, like, 1 or 2 mistakes that you see podcasters.

Alison: That’s a good question.

Jean: Just one like 1 or 2.

Lauren: I’m going to start with a big quick one. And Devin, you and we can maybe do take turns, but this one’s just get it out of the way I. This is because it’s kind of funny. Podcasters often put a microphone on their cover art, and you don’t have to do that because that’s like, if you’re watching a movie, if you had a movie poster, you wouldn’t put like a film reel on it, you know what I mean? Like, we all know that it’s a podcast. We’re here. You know, when you’re looking at your app. So it’s we I can’t tell you. We do podcast therapy consulting. How many times I have to say, you don’t have to have a podcast, a microphone, and everyone goes, no, but mine is different. I do need it. And I’m like, think about it. Just think about it. You really don’t need a podcast microphone or your headphones. We get it.

Jean: We get that it’s audio.

Lauren: Yeah, yeah. We’re here.

Alison: That’s so funny.

Lauren: Yeah.

Devin: Oh, that’s a really good one. I kind of forgot about it too. But something else that comes to mind too, is that sometimes podcasters will come to us and they’ll say, I’ve never listened to another podcast before. And I mean, I can understand And if it’s not your favorite thing to do. But if you’re making a podcast, I think you should be listening to podcasts just to like, hear how other shows are doing it, to get ideas, to figure out what makes your show different or unique. And like if you like podcasting, you’ll like listening to podcasts, and all of that will spill over to your audience and to your show and just making it better. Um, so yeah, I feel like that is a big thing. Like everybody who’s ever written a book has also read a book. So if you make a podcast, you should listen to podcasts.

Jean: Yeah, that is true.

Alison: Yeah, that is very  true. I, I’m like you, I love podcasts and I think the reason I love it is because it gives me a sense of community. And I feel like, uh, especially during Covid, I just felt very connected in the world in a different way than TV, and I’m not sure why. Maybe because it’s like in your ear or in your head or something. Um, what do you think about the idea of podcasts and and community? Because I think right now we really need to feel safe and have a community in the world. What are your thoughts on that? Because you deal with so many podcasts.

Devin: Oh, this is like when podcasts feel like your friends like getting into like that parasocial relationship territory. But it’s it’s so true and it’s so strong. And I think you’re right, it is something to do with like them being in your ears and them being that close. But also the shows that create that sense of community are the ones that are balancing, you know, bringing value, bringing information, but also bringing themselves to the show. Like there are hosts of shows that when I found out they were not going to be running anymore, I cried. I like was, yeah, what what am I going to do on Tuesdays now when there’s not going to be a new episode? And I think it’s just because you feel that close to them. You hear them every week. For some of us, that could be more often than you hear, like your best friend’s voice. Like, that’s really, really powerful. And I think that’s what helps make podcasting so special. It’s kind of like maybe over said in the industry that the intimacy of podcasting makes it special, but it’s true. That’s why it gets said a lot. Um, but I think that is it doesn’t come automatically. It’s something you have to work on, like building that feeling with your audience. And it’s something that we’ve seen both of you do. The way that you bring your friendship to the show, that is what builds a community. That is what makes people feel like, yeah, I’m hanging out with my friends Allison and Jean. That is special.

Lauren: Yeah. You want in on the friendship? You really do. And yeah, I think, um, you know, when NPR canceled a few shows, there was like this burst, and we actually had to have a team meeting at Tink to ask if people were okay because we were so sad. And that’s something like, you know, like, that’s, um, and I think another thing kind of going back to something that people do wrong, I think in order to do that, you have to be consistent because you have to you have to be there for the listener because, you know, you have to be there for them. And that’s what what that’s what they, they need. That’s what I need as a because I’m more of a listener than a podcaster, I don’t we at Tink, we do everything but actually make the podcasts. So that’s why I don’t know all the tech stuff. So I’m a much bigger listener and I need the podcast to be there. For me, it’s like I feel, yeah, I feel like it’s, um, I feel like it’s I feel, um, the podcast that I love, they make me feel less alone. They make me feel seen. If I’m having a bad day, I know they’re going to be there. Yeah. It’s truly sometimes, um, I my I turned my husband into a podcast listener. I made him so we I forced it upon him. So now he’s a podcast listener.

Alison:  I love that.

Lauren: Sometimes I sit with him at dinner and I said, I say, where did you go today? What did you learn? What adventures did you go on? I almost can’t believe it’s most mostly free. You know that I can go into any world I want. It’s unbelievable. I never, ever take that for granted.

Alison: Right – yeah, I totally I totally agree with you. I have some podcasts that I feel like they know me well.

Lauren: Can you tell me a few of your your favorites?

Alison: Uh, well, I, I have always loved This American Life.

Lauren: It’s the best.

Alison: There is something about This American life. Even before it, you know, like it was on TV for a while. I’m really old, but it was like on TV for a while, and I love that. And I love, um, Roman Mars.

Devin: Oh my goodness. Yes.

Alison: I feel like I know, I feel like I know that guy. Like, I feel like I have no idea what he looks like, but like–

Lauren:  you’re so funny.

Alison:  I feel like I could bump into him, i wouldn’t recognize him, but I could definitely.

Lauren: But if he talked, if he talked, though, can you imagine if you’re a restaurant and you heard his voice and he…

Alison: I’d be like, oh, Roman. Roman.

Lauren: It’s funny you say This American Life,  because I do feel like This American Life, , there’s so many flashy new shows all the time. Right? And it’s like This American Life keeps on,  100% consistent.All This American Life is like there’s every single week. It’s there for you. And those some of those bright, shiny shows go away. Or even just like off season. But This American Life is there for you and it’s always the best. It is the best and so I always want to think, don’t forget about this wonderful show that has been there all along. It’s such a good answer.

Alison: And I love, you know, I love Rupert Spira’s podcasts and I love like like now I’m listening to Giggly Squad and they are so funny together.  it’s like you and I but in your 20s.

Jean: Because I think podcast the dynamic does change if it’s just one person that’s staying with the questions and then, you know, you have to be more courteous and let you know there’s an exchange when you have two people. You know, I think it’s actually a little in one way, I think it’s easier that that I have a partner. It’s like playing doubles tennis, like, you know, you’re not out there alone and you’re it’s not all on you. And then on the other side. It’s acknowledging Alison’s strengths and sort of I know this is something she’s going to. That’s the angle she’s going to take. Or um, you know, I’m going to be more this way, but I, I could not be more thrilled to be doing this podcast together ,ith you Alison.

Lauren: Well, not everybody can do it but it’s so natural with you two like, not everyone should do it, but I feel like it feels very right  because you have a good friendship. That’s if you have the friendship, you have the good base. Mhm.

Jean: Yeah that’s true.

Alison: Yes. Yes, yes. Have you guys met in person. Because Devin you’re in Toronto right? And Lauren where are you in New York.

Lauren: I just moved to Philadelphia a couple weeks ago.

Alison: Wow, I love Philadelphia. Have you seen each other in 3D?

Lauren: Devin came to New York, and I made her go to my favorite restaurant, Yeah, we got I got to hug . I think it was one of the longest hugs of my entire life.

Devin: Yeah, She was like, I’m not going to let go. I’m like, that’s okay. We met like last August was the first and only time we’ve met in person so far.

Lauren: We’ve got to do it again. Someone from our team is moving to Toronto and I’m so jealous. She tells me about it every day. She rubs it in my face. So. Yeah.

Devin: Yeah, we’re going to dinner tomorrow night. I’m sorry.

Alison: See? See what a different world we live in, right? That you guys can be so close and have only hugged each other one time, right? It’s kind of amazing.

Devin: It’s wild. And that’s like, with so much of our team has not met each other in person. But we feel so, so close. Like there are some times on like Friday at 5 p.m. we’re all like, well, I know we have to go for the weekend now, but I would, I just want to keep hanging out with all of you, you know, like that’s I can’t even imagine what it would be like if we were in an office together. It would. I don’t know if we could handle how good it would be.

Lauren: Wel, our our goal, our team goal, um, is never we always talk about our goals, and it’s never, like, money related or anything like that. It’s all human spirit, soul, person related. And right now we would love to plan a retreat where like that is where we can all, you know, find someone’s house or find a get an Airbnb or something and have just a few days to really, really. Because I think it makes such a difference to be together so that we’re like trying to like, figure out that’s what the money is for. If we have extra money, that’s what it’s going for, because I think it’ll make a huge difference. We’d have so much fun. We were just at Podcast Movement, some of us in Washington DC, which is the our big conference.

Alison: And how is that? What can you tell us what that is?

Lauren: Yeah, I mean, it’s just this, you know, it’s a very corporate conference where all the podcasters, people in the industry come together. And, you know, I spoke on a panel about marketing and a couple people from our team spoke on panels. There’s parties, there’s just events. It’s like I call it my summer camp because to me it is running around us. Suddenly, I don’t know what time it is or what day it is, and nothing matters. I’m just my friends are there. Like I get to see clients, old people I’ve worked with, you know, and I, you know, for the first time ever, I brought some people from Tink and they actually spoke on panels. So for the first time ever, I always speak on these panels. But I was in the audience watching Tink people speak and I was crying like, I know I cry a lot, but like, I was so moved. Someone gave a presentation  from my team, gave a presentation on metadata that everybody was like, metadata is so cool. I was like, yes, they (my team)  made metadata so cool. There was a panel with Shreya and Ilana from my team, and  the way they were looking at each other, I was like, I think they’re in love with each other. It was so cute. It was so cute. And we went to this one party. I was just talking about this with them, and I think I was just telling Devin about this. We were invited to this party run by another company, and we just all– what we did was we found a booth and all of the Tink people came together. And I said, yeah, we’re at a party. But we were just hanging out with each other because really being together is really special. So hopefully we’ll get to do that someday.

Alison: Love that.

Jean: That is so great. I have a friend that that uses the word PLERK – it’s play and work together

Alison: That’s exactly right. I think that’s a great word.

Lauren: I’m stealing that we’re having. We are. So we’ll credit. We’ll credit you every time we use it. That is so good.

Jean: No, not me, but, yeah, Plerk. Yeah. And isn’t that, I think the the true expression of things that we can work together and we can play together and, and you know, it doesn’t have to be so, so sterile and, you know, just just have fun because life is short and there’s there is a lot of good out there. And you, you are all part of sharing such good, good stuff.

Alison: Yeah. It’s you really feel joy in the workplace with you guys, you know?

Lauren: Well, that’s what your podcast is all about. I feel like that’s what you two are doing.

Jean: That’s right. Yeah. That’s why you’re on our podcast.

Alison: That’s right.

Jean: We’re sharing your good.

Alison: What would be your hope about podcasts? What if someone has never listened to a podcast? What would be your hope that they the takeaway would be if they started, or how would you get them to engage in a Podcast.

Lauren: It’s funny because I used to think that, you know, I know about so many because all I do is listen. I listen to so many. I thought, oh, I would find the perfect podcast for each person, so pretend like someone lived. I’m from Ohio. If I knew someone in Ohio, I’d be like, you know what? I found a podcast about Buckeyes and I’m going to send it to you because you’re from Ohio and you’re going to love it. That’s wrong. I’ve changed my mind about how to find someone, get someone to listen. You just send them the best there is. So that means sending them this American life. That is the new way I get people to listen to podcasts. I don’t try to find the most perfect little podcast that I think they might like. I just send them the best one there is, which is probably This American Life. So that is how I like to get people. And I think, I don’t know, my hope is that I guess I’ll put it simply, my hope is that they hear a podcast and then they want another one. That’s my hope. Devin, how would you answer?

Devin: Um, okay to get someone to listen to a podcast. I definitely agree with Lauren, but I do think that more and more there’s this sweet spot where it’s it is a really high quality podcast, but it also has like some kind of familiar element to it. So whether it’s like an interest or it’s like a person they already know, you know, like there’s a lot of celebrity podcasts out there right now that are just kind of celebrities making a podcast for the sake of celebrities making a podcast. But they do serve a really nice purpose of being like someone’s gateway podcast, because they’re familiar with Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Jane Fonda. So they’ll listen to that episode, and then they’re like, okay, so this is what a podcast is. And then once you get them familiar like that, you’re like, okay, so if you like that one, try this one. And with each podcast, you know, they grow a little bit more familiar because I think a lot of people, it’s they either don’t really know what it is or they don’t know how to access it. So I have done all different kinds of things to help people figure that out, whether it’s like giving instructions on how to access a podcast based on what I know about their comfort level with technology and where they might be listening and things like that. And then it’s like finding the ones that are really perfect. Like, I found one for my dad that he listens to religiously because it’s from somebody he already knew about.

Devin: And so he was already going to be invested and ready to listen to every episode. Um, I found one for my aunt. This came out earlier this year, Broom Gate, which is about curling, and my aunt did curling. She loves curling. So I sent it to her and we all listened to it and talked about it. But like a few years ago, neither of those things would be true. So we are just getting more options that make it much easier for us to do this, and to talk to the people that don’t listen to podcasts yet. Um, and then what’s I mean, my hope is the same as Lauren’s. Like, I just hope they keep finding more podcasts and that we can get podcasts past this point where they feel like a joke or like, not a real thing. Because I think that the outside world has this idea of what podcasts are. But then once you get into them, you see what they really are. And like I said, like books and TV shows and movies have always existed and have always grown, and audio has always existed and always grown like radio and radio stories were huge. So none of this is new. It’s just like the technology and people catching up with each other and meeting somewhere where everybody gets it. That’s my hope.

Alison: So you would like to inspire people to listen and also to jump in, put your toe in and jump in?

Devin: Yeah. Because I think that’s another thing is people are like, well, I don’t know if I want to dedicate how do I know I want to dedicate my time to this show. I don’t. How do I know I’m going to like it? But that’s the same with a movie or a TV show or a book. You start it. Maybe you like it. Maybe you only make one episode or read one chapter and then you’re out. Go to another one. The thing with podcasting, too, like Lauren said, we’re so, so lucky that so many of them are free to access. It doesn’t cost you any money to try one and then go find another one. You don’t have to finish it, but you can easily dip your toes and then figure it out.

Alison: I love that.

Jean: That’s so true. You know, Devin, I never thought of podcasts as like, a radio show, but you’re so right. I remember sitting with my dad, and he would listen to something on the radio when he would be driving, called the Bickersons. And, you know, it’d be these couples that would bicker and and I do remember thinking– being a little girl in the back seat thinking, oh, this is sort of like a TV show. Just you’re just hearing the audio. And I thought that was really cool, that, that. And now and so now it’s sort of that, but a little more polished. And lastly, I just want to add that I think it’s so great that people– there’s so many different types of podcast topics and that you can do  your own podcast if that, if you really feel  called. But it is a lot of work.

Lauren: It is  work.

Jean: I mean, it sounds easy. It’s like when people would say to me, oh, Jean, you own a flower shop. That’s so fun and easy. And like, owning a flower shop is a lot of work. I know it sounds very cute and like, oh, I love flowers and it’s a lot of work.

Lauren: Just sounds like they’re like, oh, she’s in a rom com. It’s just so easy, right?   I love that story of you, picturing you and listening to the Bickersons. Thats so cute… yeah, it’s like radio, except you can listen. That’s how I explain it to people , it’s like radio, but you can do it whenever you want. Like you can, you know, you don’t have to wait for your show to be on there all the time. It’s so great.

Alison: That’s right.

Lauren: I want the Bickersons to come back. We got to get the Bickersons on podcast. Yeah. Where’s the Bickersons?

Jean: That’s something you and Dan can work on.

Alison: Dan, that’s my husband. See, the way she’s saying, we’re always bickering.

Jean: No, no, no. Just because you both have great voices.

Alison: I know, I’m totally teasing you, I love you. I love that. Uh, so, um, the amount of love and support that you guys emanate, I just want to encourage anyone that’s thinking about a podcast to go to your website. And because you have so many resources right on your website for beginners, right?

Jean: I consider you sort of like fertilizer for podcasts.

Lauren: That’s good, that’s good. Oh, we’re going to have to steal that. Can we put that on our website?

Jean: Yeah. Yeah of course.  Because that is the number one reason why we reached out to you, Lauren, was because we saw that, you know, you help grow podcaster’s audience.

Alison: So if someone has an idea for a podcast, are you the person–Would you be someone that they would talk to in the preliminary stages of that? Or is it better that they are doing something and then contact you guys?

Lauren: People can contact us at any stage,  we’ve helped people develop ideas. Sometimes people just want to know, you know, our ears are always on the ground with the industry too. Like, is this a good idea for a show? Is this something that could be, you know, sustainable? Do you think we could make money off of this someday? So we love talking about podcasts no matter what stage they are. And even if, um, you know, Devin and I were on a call today where I said to this woman, I said, I don’t know if we can help you, but maybe we can put you in the better direction. So I would just say, reach out to us and we’ll we’ll push you in a better direction if if we know, you know, we know a lot of people in this space and it’s a very collaborative space. So we’re always happy to send you to somebody else. If you want to make a podcast, we want you to make a podcast. We want to get you there.

Jean: That’s beautiful.

Alison: Thank you. So as we wrap up, we have two questions. What does Insdiewink mean to you? What do you think that means?

Devin: I feel like the wink part of insidewink. I don’t know if I hear it talked about that much. So me, to me, it’s like your way of exuding that positivity and optimism and like, goodness, but like in a way that it’s like you’re winking to the world, you know, like it doesn’t always have to be overt. It can sometimes just be like a little nod to the goodness. Um, so I think that’s kind of your inside wink. It’s not always the big things. It’s the little things that are happening or that you’re doing or that you’re feeling that come back to your goodness and the world’s goodness.

Lauren: I love the name. And I also love that you ask people because it can mean so many different things I love it. I thought and it’s funny because we’re talking about your, you know, friendship. I thought it was kind of like you two have this almost like communication, almost like a language between the two of you that’s really special. And it’s like I see you insideWinking each other like, I got you. Like you know you’re inviting us in. But you have this relationship. But also your audience gets to share on that inside wink. So it’s kind of like, to me, inside wink is friendship. It’s that is what an inside wink is. It’s your friendship. It’s who, who do you feel this kind of like connection with? Where it’s like, you know, you’re winking at each other, but you’re feeling it inside? I don’t know, but I love that there’s so many different interpretations.

Alison: We’ve been asking people this question, which actually I think was your guy’s idea. Yeah, so you inspired us for that.

Jean:  That came from your podcast therapy, which we did, and we love it.

Alison: Um, I think it’s interesting because when people answer this, it really speaks to who that person is. So when we ask people what inside wink means, they’re really exposing the beautiful part of themselves because each answer we’ve gotten has been different. They’re all correct. And it it shows you there a little glimpse of their heart. It’s you know, it’s kind of been amazing. Yeah. I thank

Lauren: But it’s like you didn’t even think of that when you thought of the name. Right? It’s just. That’s so interesting. It’s like a metaphor for how beautiful this show is. It’s like it was there all along. I love that so much. I love it so much.

Alison: How beautiful people are.

Lauren: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Alison: And our next question.

Jean: It’s The soulfulness of people being expressed outward.

Alison: That’s right. Yeah. Do you want to do the our last question is,

Jean: Do you like pie, cake or ice cream?

Lauren: Okay. I do remember during podcast therapy, I suggested something , and you can say, no. I feel like I, I want to guess Devin’s. You don’t have to guess mine, Devin. But can I guess your’s?

Devin: I want to know your guess, because I know you’ve been thinking about this a lot.

Lauren: I’ve been thinking about it way too much.  I’ve been doing research. I’ve been asking people, okay, so I don’t— You said cake, pie or ice cream, right? And it’s not cake. It is not cake with Devin… If I could pick anything, I’d say donuts. But donuts wasn’t on the list, so. And it’s tough because you talk about ice cream a lot, Devin and I know that you have favorite flavors and you go to ice cream shops– i know this, but I also feel like Devin is a very good chef and cook, and so I feel like making pie. You’d be very good at that. And I would like you to make me a pie. I’m going to say ice cream,  I’ve been going back and forth in my mind. Just got it. I didn’t even know what I was going to say on this call, but I’m just going to say ice cream.

Devin: Okay. I mean, you’re right with donuts. Donuts would be the answer if it was an option. Um, and I’m not surprised that you said ice cream because I have told you several ice cream related stories. Um, but I think the plot twist might be that my answer is actually cake.

Alison: Wow.

Lauren:  oh, wow.

Jean: I can see that because if you like donuts, that’s sort of cakey.

Devin: And, like i have not made very many pies, but I really like making cakes. Like, even trying to decorate cakes with something I was doing for a while. Not like at all in a professional way. I just wanted to, like, have fun with it and see, like, how pretty can I make a cake? And I will still do that sometimes. So I like eating them and making them, so I think I will choose cake, but ice cream would be second. But donuts were in, then it’s a different conversation.

Lauren: I have to go talk to Holly and Alana because we were at dinner and I was we were all kind of like, well, it’s absolutely not cake. Like, let’s move on from that because, wow, okay.

Alison: Look at that. A discovery between friends, right?

Lauren: Still, after all that,  I was so sure.

Alison: Devin, do you want to guess? Lauren’s?

Devin: I honestly don’t know. I don’t think it’s ice cream for you. I don’t think it’s pie, either. I don’t know. I feel like we haven’t talked about desserts enough.

Lauren: It is…..Do you want me to tell you?

Devin: Yes.

Lauren: Okay.  You were right. It’s absolutely not ice cream. Like, not even close. Like no ice cream. I feel like the texture, but pie for sure. Okay.

Devin: Okay.

Lauren: And  i would prefer rhubarb/ strawberry. Both.

Speaker5: Yes.

Devin: Wow. Okay, okay. I mean, good choice.

Lauren: I mean FYI.

Lauren: Yeah, but I can’t make one. But you can make pies, Devin. You’ll make me a pie at our retreat. Okay.

Devin: I yes, I will get better at making pies just for you.

Lauren: Okay. Thank you.

Alison: Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you for all the love that you have shown us.

Jean: You really have. We’re just so grateful that you’re in our lives. And you’ve helped us grow and  you’ve helped us also feel more value within doing our podcast. I always loved our podcast, but I. I really value it even more. So thank you for that.

Lauren: Um, that is I mean, we have goals for our clients, but that’s the best one ever to hear someone say that. That’s very moving. So thank you. And thank you for the wonderful stuff you’re putting out in the world too, with your podcast. This is like it means, and I can’t even believe we’re on the show. Like, can we talk about that? Unbelievable. So thank you for having us on your show.

Jean:  we love it and we love you all.

Lauren: We love you. Yes.

Alison: Thank you so much, Devin and Lauren. Yeah.

Devin: Thank you.

Jean: So have a great day and we will get back to you really soon.

Lauren: Let us know if you need anything. Thank you.

Alison: Love you. Bye.

Lauren: Kisses. Bye. Okay.

Jean: They are awesome.

Alison: I love that they truly enjoy their work. And they they seem to really love podcasts. Just as a medium as  the whole idea of it, you know?

Jean: Yeah. I think that’s the whole secret to success is loving what you’re doing.

Alison: and they’re very creative. Like they’re always coming up with ideas- like that was the thing, like we’d hang up and my hand would be tired from writing down what they were saying. You know they have so many wonderful creative ideas.

Jean: Yes. I really also appreciated that they sent us a list of all their tips. After our phone calls, they sent a great email that outlined the phone call, outlined all the tips, and I think that was such a well spent, well spent money for what we received.

Alison: And even if you’re just thinking of a podcast, their website has so many tips that you don’t cost you anything. They have newsletters and ideas for things, and little discussions that really give you insight into podcasts. And I think podcasts are important because it creates a greater sense of community and you can find anything you want. Like she said, there’s a podcast for curling.

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Like, do you know like, that’s beautiful to me. Yeah.

Jean: So. So please, if you are a podcaster or know of one, this is a great company. If, if they need a little boost or fertilizer, as I said on the podcast, to  grow, grow your audience.

Alison: And even if you’re just interested in podcasts, their website, Tink Media  is so interesting and I, I think I’m really leaning into the idea of podcasts because I think anything that brings us more together and shows us more insights about other people, I think is so important right now.

Jean: Yeah, because we really are all the same.

Alison: We’re all the same.

Jean: Even though I like cake and you like.

Alison: I like ice cream, I know I really like ice cream.

Jean: But that’s good.

Alison: Yeah, I could eat ice cream on cake or pie. See, I like it all.  I like the turducken….

Jean: Yes you do.

Alison: Of the whole thing. I’ll eat it all. You know me, right?

Jean: I’m a little single lane on my desserts.

Alison: Really?

Jean: Cake.

Alison: Cake, well there you go. Now you know. Everyone knows now about Jean’s dessert preference. Well, we hope you have a great day. And we hope this was a little insightful and shared some good about what we’re doing.

Jean: Right, and what Tink Media is doing. Yeah. All right. Have a great day.

Alison: Bye.