Podcast Episode 34: Hadley Vlahos

Alison : Okay. Hi.

Jean: Oh. Good morning.

Alison : Good morning.

Jean: Let me get my glasses on.

Alison : That’s right. You all ready?

Jean: I’m all ready.

Alison : You’re all prepared?

Jean: I’m ready for this amazing interview. What are you looking at?

Alison : It says remove before use on your glasses. That’s excellent. Did you just like…

Jean: Oh, I just got these.

Alison : Okay, let me help you. So what’s our interview today?

Jean: Okay. We have this amazing nurse who is really taking… She’s on fire..she’s hot. This beautiful nurse ,her name is Hadley Vlahos.. And she talks about hospice care. She wrote a book called The In Between and I loved it. Allison.

Alison : Me too.

Jean: And my friend, um, AnneMarie introduced me to this book and she said, Jean, you’re going to love this book. And I do.

Alison : I do too, and I, I think death and before death and what happens during the death process is something that we don’t talk about enough.

Jean: I was actually thinking the same thing. And and I love that she’s she’s gently easing us into the, the okayness around death that it is a natural process and it’s, um, something we all eventually will, will experience. And it’s, um, she’s really a gifted writer as well.

Alison : Oh, yes. Yeah. And I had resistance to reading it because I was taking care of my mother as she was passing, and you’ve been through the process, too. And, um, I really was afraid to read the book because I thought it would bring up so much for me, or I had resistance. And then I said, well, I’ll give it a chapter. And then I just, I loved it. I loved how she writes about it, and it actually gave me comfort. Um, you know, which is great.

Jean: Yeah. I found it very relatable.

Alison : I can’t wait to hear this interview.

Jean: Yeah, me too..Okay, let’s do it.

Alison : Let’s do it.

Hadley: Nice to meet y’all.

Alison : I am so nice to meet you. Uh, you are just so wonderful. And we loved the, In Between… Yeah.

Hadley:  oh, I’m so glad. Thank you.

Alison : And I, I bought some to give to people.

Hadley: Oh, thank you so much. That means the world to me.

Jean: You did such a beautiful job in writing about such a delicate topic, Hadley. And, um, I really appreciate the book and could absolutely relate to it. And I also got a chuckle when I saw my husband’s name when you were talking to your mother.

Hadley: Oh, I forgot about that. Yes.

Speaker3: You mentioned Alex Trebek, and I thought, I am definitely supposed to be reading this book. So, um, anyway, thank you. We know you’re super busy. Uh, your –  this book has really launched a new, uh.

Alison : Like, discussion.

Jean: So many openings for you.

Hadley: Yeah, it definitely has. It’s. Yeah, it’s a whole new world.

Alison : That’s great. Your personality really comes across in this book, but could you tell us a little bit about how you got into hospice care because you were, uh, working in the ER, right?

Hadley: Yeah, So I did a year long internship in the hospital where I went to all different areas of the hospital, but they mostly had me in the ER, and then from there, after that year long, um, internship where I did a night shift, uh, I applied for a day shift job and I didn’t get it. And I had my son, who was so young and, um, I went to my manager and said, you know, how long do you think until I could get moved to day shift? This is really hard for me, finding childcare in the middle of the night. And, um, they said, you know, it could be three years. And I said, I can’t, I can’t do that. So I took a job in the nursing home as a manager, and that is where I really saw hospice patients for the first time. We didn’t really learn about it in school, but we had hospice patients in the nursing home. So I would watch the hospice nurses come in and sit one on one with the patients. And I’m like, I did not know that there was a type of nursing where you could be one on one with patients, and also they would talk to me about more than just their medications and more than just what we were doing for them. To them, honestly, they would tell me about how their family was doing and just a really holistic viewpoint. And I was like, oh, I don’t know what kind of nursing this is, but I want to try this instead and haven’t looked back. That was eight years ago.

Alison : Wow. And the switch from going from, um, caregiving and helping people get better to helping people let go. What was that switch like?

Hadley: That was really difficult for me, because nursing school really teaches you to just fix, fix, fix. And I had to really, um, adjust my thinking to that, instead saying, how can I make them comfortable? And it really is a totally different mindset, to the point where I don’t think I could ever go back to the hospital, because if someone was like near the end of their life, they wanted ice cream, I’d be like, okay, let’s do it, you know?

Jean: Right. Well, you make you, um, really drive that point home in your book that, um, it is about comfort. Is that what you would say? What would you actually say, Hadley, hospice is all about?

Hadley: I actually would say comfort is a big one, but I think that it’s finding, uh, life at the end of life. And I know a lot of people seem to think it a lot of it’s about death. But as you all know, even in the book, it’s less than half a page is usually the death part of it. Um, for each patient, because it’s such a small part of the time that I’m spending with these patients, I really get to see a lot of a lot of life with them and a lot of good quality of life.

Jean: Yeah.

Jean: One of my favorite quotes that you say, well, I have many favorite quotes, but one of them is, um, where you say, Hadley, that being a hospice nurse, you really feel alive.

Hadley: Yeah.

Jean: And why do you think that?

Hadley: I think I get this constant reminder that I’m going to be in those shoes, that bed one day. And I think it’s so easy for people to get caught up in their day to day and their routines, and to forget that one day we’re going to die until it’s in your face. You know, for me, it’s in my face every day because of my job. But for many people, it’s not in their face until they’re losing a loved one. And then all of a sudden we get this wake up call of, oh, that’s going to be me one day, and I need to, i need to live my life. I need to make sure that I’m doing the things that I’m supposed to be doing, like telling people how much I love them and making sure that I’m happy and doing the things I want to be doing. But that’s where I found a lot of life. Is that constant reminder for me that one day I’m going to be in that hospital bed.

Alison : Right when I found it, I took care of my.. We all know about Jean and Alex, and I took care of my mother when she was passing, and it was really hard, hard, really, really hard. And I was afraid to read your book because I thought it was going to bring up, um, a lot of stuff for me, you know? But actually, I found it so comforting. Wow, I feel very emotional. I found it very comforting, um, because she was saying things like, where are all those people going on that escalator? And, you know, grandma told me this today, and I found that so beautiful. So those stories of seeing people that’s consistent for you, right?

Hadley: Yeah, it doesn’t matter what their background is or their beliefs, religious beliefs, no religious beliefs, no matter what it is. And I hear that a lot, or they say that they’re packing bags or there’s a train. And the way I interpret that is that whatever they’re hearing, seeing, knowing about, they don’t we don’t necessarily have the language or the knowledge here on earth to interpret that. So they’re using what’s closest to such as an escalator or a train. Like they they’re going on a trip is what they say, because that’s the only language I think we have to try to interpret what’s going on, because everything will have this like underlying travel theme, but they’ll be but they’ll be different in that way. Or someone says, uh, you know, I need to pack a bag. And I’m like, do you, do you need a bag? And they’ll say, no, I guess I don’t.

Alison : Right, I guess I have everything I need. Um, is there such a thing as, like, I found it very profound. And, uh, your story about Babette, um, because you had felt. And that’s how I felt about my mother. I should have done more. It should have been different. I should have, like, been playing soft music, and it just didn’t happen that way,  and I thought it was going to. So, um, is there is there really now, in hindsight, such a thing as a good passing or a bad passing?

Hadley: I don’t think so. I think that everything happens as it should for, for whatever reason that is. Um, I think it’s easy, though, for me to say, as a nurse with goals, I want certain things to happen for my patients, so of course I can feel like some are better than the other. But at the end of the day, I say, you know, it’s out of my hands. And and this happened for whatever reason it did. And sometimes I’ll learn about it, um, later. Such as, i remember one actually just very recently that a daughter was coming and I really felt like I was like, come on. Like I knew it was going to be very close to her making it. And I was very anxious about it. And, um, she did not make it by like 20 minutes. And of course, in my mind as a nurse, I’m like. Uh, you know, I really wanted her to make it. And should I have called her a day sooner? Because it was one where she was trying to get off work, and so she was like, please call me. This is how long? And so, of course, as a nurse, I’m like, oh gosh, I should have called the day before. But she couldn’t take off like a week and that can be hard to predict. And then at the funeral, she was like, hey, like, you know, I’ve been doing stuff at the funeral this week. Um, I just want to let you know, uh, I think this is how it’s supposed to happen. I really don’t think I could have handled watching her pass. And I was like, okay. And it made me feel better. So, you know, that underlying thing of, like, everything happens as it should, right?

Jean: Right.

Jean: Yeah. That’s such a great thing to remember all the time. So, Hadley, uh, you know, I sense that your connection with your patients is what really is so important to letting them let go and release this physical body and move into the next dimension, if you will. So for you personally, how do you, kind of soothe yourself or not take it so personally. Um, that you get so connected with these beings and you’re giving your heart and your love. Uh, and then you have to… Oh, you know, moving on to the next. I mean, can you talk about that a little bit?

Hadley: Yeah, it can definitely be very difficult for sure. Um, but I think it helps that I’m like, oh, I’m going to see them again one day. And I do truly believe that. So that definitely is more like the see you later instead of goodbye. But it definitely can be difficult whenever you have a really close patient and then you have to just go see someone new. Uh, the good thing about hospice, though, um, especially whenever you do home based care, is that you do get time in the car to decompress. I have a little playlist that I’ll listen to after a patient passes. And, um, that is really nice, as opposed to when you’re in the hospital or really any other setting where you’re going from room to room and you’re immediately usually I’ll get some time and, you know, I’m out here in the country so I can get up to 30 minutes sometimes between patients to kind of decompress, which helps a lot.

Alison : Where are you? Where are you located?

Hadley: I’m, um, outside of New Orleans.

Alison : Oh, excellent. Because I thought. I thought you were closer to the East Coast, but New Orleans. I love New Orleans. Yeah.

Hadley: Me, too.

Alison : Yeah, it’s it’s beautiful.

Alison : It’s so beautiful there. And, um, you have so many different people in this book. Um, have you treated anyone else similar to Albert? (a person living on the streets).

Hadley: Yes, I have some right now. Um, but it’s pretty rare. Usually they will agree to go into a nursing home if we can get them. Patients who are homeless into a nursing home. Um, I had one recently, though, where it was like we meet at the same bench at the same time every week. And I asked my manager, I was like, what happens when they don’t show up? Or if they don’t show up? She said, we’re going to cross that bridge when we come to it. I’m like, okay, so I get nervous every single week, but so far so good. Um, but yeah, that we, we have we have patients like that. It’s always, um,  it’s always challenging, but it reminds me to get out of autopilot, which I think we can all do in our jobs and, um, to, to really make sure that I’m doing things the correct way. And then that also helps with all of my patients.

Alison : Right? Yeah. Right.

Jean: So it I feel like I’ve taken so much, um, pearls of wisdom from your book, Hadley. And can you share 1 or 2 of your favorite patients that have really imprinted something that’s very meaningful to you?

Hadley: Yeah. Um, definitely. Elizabeth, she says to me,  “Eat the cake.” She matters, you know a lot to me. And I’ve seen so many eat the cake tattoos, which is really cool.

Jean: Um, can you tell us about Elizabeth for our audience?

Hadley: Of course. Yeah.  I had a patient who I call Elizabeth, who was younger for a hospice patient in her 40s, and she had lung cancer, but we did not know why. She was like the picture of health. Yoga teacher, um, never smoked a cigarette. Um, and she was dying on hospice, and she just stopped me one day, i was just sitting there with her and said, you know, Hadley, I would love to give you some advice because I see a lot of myself in you. Um, and I really have been sitting here just thinking about my life, and I really wish I would have just eaten the cake. And I wish I would have spent more time with my friends and gone to the beach and not cared what my stomach looked like, and gone to dinners. And, um, what was so significant to me about that was that, um, it it was so true because she ended up dying with just me there. And another one of my coworkers, um, she she did not have her family and friends around her because she had been so obsessed, um, from her words, with just her body image. And it was really eye opening to me whenever I realized that I had been doing that, I had been skipping out on on certain bonding activities because I was so self conscious, and it really changed my life in a really significant way. And I definitely believe that Elizabeth is is looking down and is happy that her, that she impacted so many people in such a big way. Um, that’s been really important to me. And then, um, Carl in my book was like a grandfather to me.  And, um, we had a weird way of going about it.

Hadley: He ended up finding out that I was a single mom, and I just said, you know, I don’t I don’t have time to keep up with the news, with sports and with whatever’s going on in the world. And he’s like, well, I just lie here in bed all day, you know? That’s all I have time to do. So he would start telling me what’s going on in the world and in sports world. And then he started writing down these little notes for me because he would say, every time you leave, I forget to tell you something I wanted to tell you. So I just start writing them down so I’d come give me my little notes. And, um, I didn’t think much of it, uh, at the time it was happening, and I was still pretty new in my career. Just was like something that had developed between the two of us. And then, um, right before he died, he had told me, um, thank you for giving me something to look forward to- instead of death. And that was the moment that I was like, oh, this is what I’m going to do for the rest of my life. Like, this is my calling. This is why I am here. And I think of him so often, whenever I feel like I, I’m not doing much when I just go in there and I’m just taking their vital signs and I’m just like, okay, are you okay on medications? And it just reminds me of just being here and making sure that I’m providing a positive presence and an uplifting presence can, and just talking to them and listening can be doing more than I realize it is.

Alison : That’s a that’s amazing. Um, what do you think are some questions if someone that that our listeners know is in hospice, what are some questions that are important to ask a hospice person or what are some like what how do you prepare for this?

Hadley: Yeah, it can definitely. Be difficult. Um, I would say if you are in hospice, um, nothing is off limits. Um, and don’t be afraid to talk to your hospice nurse, to the hospice social worker. If you are encountering difficulties with the family, because we are so used to that and we we don’t mind at all having conversations and helping to facilitate that. Um, I think people sometimes feel like, oh, I don’t want people to think like, my family’s crazy. Um, I have learned that there is no such thing as a normal family. Like there is absolutely…

Alison : That is so true.

Hadley: There is no Such thing. So we we don’t mind. A big thing that I see hospice patients deal with is that they go to talk to their family and friends about their death, and they start that conversation and out of a place of love, 100% the family or friends will stop them and say, oh my gosh, we don’t need to talk about that. You know, you’re going to get better. You’re going to beat this. They are trying to be positive, and I know it’s coming from a place of love, but my hospice patients will tell me that they feel like they can’t talk to anyone about what they’re going through, and they sometimes just want to be able to express, you know, hey, when I do die, please know how much I love you. And whenever people hear, oh, when I die, they immediately want to be like, oh, that’s not positive. That’s not going to happen. Um, but it’s doing more harm than good. Yeah. And, um, I wish people realized that because I think everyone’s coming from a place of, like, good. Right? Even though it is, you know, you should just let that person tell you what they want to tell you. And if they want to talk about death, to just let them talk about death.

Jean: Right.

Alison : That’s such a good point. This society doesn’t do that. That’s what Jean and I were talking about. This society just makes believe we’re born and like, everything’s about birth.

Jean: We can’t even talk about aging. We can’t talk about…

Alison : Menopause, you know?

Jean: Yeah. You know, I, I want to give a shout out to your profession, Hadley. Because when when Alex passed away, um, I was one of those people that was like, you know, the numbers can change. You’re going to get stronger. You know, people love you. We’re getting so many prayers. You know, it’s going to… And I now, in retrospect, I think that it was hard for Alex to really say to me. I’m really moving in a different direction than you want me to. And it took our hospice nurse who was amazing. Um, to to come into the kitchen and say, you know what, Jean? I was talking to Alex, and he is he’s ready to let go of this physical form. And I had such, I had such a feeling of surrender that there was really it was in God’s hands, if you will. It was not my life, this was Alex’s life, not mine, to dictate and make it about me. Um, me feeling you can do it like that, that had its time for a little bit, but, um, his course of his soul expression here on planet Earth had its own agenda. And I had to really become selfless and just go, i have to let this hospice nurse be with her and not… And I was never against, you know, we it was very short the time that the hospice nurse was with us but that surrender. And then once I really did that there was this peace that passes all understanding. As for me anyway. And, um. Your profession is is such a blessing and it’s not for everyone, you know, you are a chosen few. Um, and so it’s such an honor to talk and with you about this very delicate and important conversation about death.

Alison : Totally. You know, and I think having children. Do you talk to your children about what you do?

Hadley: Yeah. They know, um, they will talk about death very normally. I actually got a call from Brody, who’s now eleven and in school, about a year ago that, um, he had told people in class, um, my mommy went and saw a dead person last night, and I was like, well, I did. I was at the dinner table and I got a call that someone died, and I said, someone died, I’m leaving. And, um, I don’t think too much of it, to be honest. And, um, I said, that is what happened. I’m in hospice nurse, and I said, I’m not going to tell him to not say that. Um, you know, was it upsetting anyone? I mean, that’s that’s what I do for work. Um, and I’m okay with him doing that. He actually lost his dad’s dad, so his grandfather about six months ago, and I was curious how he would handle it with being the first one that he can at least remember. And, um, he said, you know, I think that he I’m going to see him again. And I said, I agree. Um, he said, I think that I can feel him with me sometimes. And I said, I think so, I definitely do. And he said, can I get a picture of him for my room? And I said, absolutely, I’ll do that today. And he said, okay. And then he called his grandmother, you know, his wife, and said, can we go to church? Which is something she likes to do. Can I go with you this Sunday? And she said, yes. And  that’s been the extent of it. He’s done really, really well. I’ve been really proud of him.

Alison : That’s, that’s really amazing. I think teaching, you know, we have older children and I try to talking with them when my mom was back here passing, my kids were in back here running around

Speaker4: Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, there’s no. Way to keep them out, you know? Yeah, it’s it’s, I think it’s an important thing to do. How how has all of this changed your view spiritually? And what do you think happens when they close their eyes and their heart stops? What do you think happens?

Hadley: Yeah. So I consider myself to be spiritual. And, um, I like religion. I think that it can provide a guidebook for like how to live a good life. I just like personally haven’t found a religion that I’m like, oh yeah, that’s that’s me. So I just say that I’m spiritual. I, um, believe that there is some other place that we go that there is like something beyond us, just from what I have experienced, um, with people such as seeing their deceased loved ones and for me, something that’s really significant for even people who don’t, um, believe in anything is that at the end of life, there’s up to a minute between breaths. So scientifically if it was no there’s no spiritual realm, there’s no like feeling of anything, um, then no one would know that someone died until a minute after they’ve actually taken their last breath because, then the next breath never comes and they’re like, oh, they died a minute ago. But being in the room with so many people as they’ve taken that last breath, I have never, ever, ever once not had a family member say that was their last breath immediately and been correct.  Um, you know, and I know too, you can feel it, you know, whenever someone takes their last breath, um, which I think is really interesting, um, you can just feel that there, that that they’re not there anymore. Um, so I don’t really know what exactly happens. And I’ve had to just kind of be comfortable with that of, like, I think something happens, but I’ll figure it out one day?

Alison : I agree, I totally agree, but I love that I think people look to people like you, you know, for that, which is interesting. Is that is that good or is that a pressure or like what? How do you feel about the impact you’re having right now?

Hadley: I actually, when I was writing the book, went back and forth. My editor love her so much. Um, so I was raised in the Deep South, raised very religious, and, um, she wanted me to put that I was spiritual and not religious in the conclusion, which I did. And, um, I said, they’re going to like, come for me, like, they’re gonna everyone’s gonna one star my book. Like, I can’t do it. I can’t do it. Just leave it out. And she’s like, no, because people are gonna put down the book and they’re gonna have questions. You have to. You have to just own it. Just be yourself. The amount of people who have come to me and said, thank you so much. Thank you for putting that. Thank you for saying, because I’ve felt I’ve also was raised religious and I fear saying, you know, maybe I’m not anymore, but maybe that doesn’t mean that I’m an atheist. Maybe it means that I can just be spiritual and I can still have these beliefs without necessarily agreeing with some of the religious trauma that I have. And, um, it’s been overwhelming positive. But I was very, very, very scared about putting that.

Alison : I bet. Yeah.

Jean: I mean, you know, your book, you you’ve shared so much about your life, Hadley. You know, it’s not easy to. Yeah. And then to have this book be accepted at such a level.  Like here you go from small town, hospice nurse and I’m going to share my stories and, and, uh, where this book has really opened your life to such a public platform.  How do you feel? Do you feel different about that now? Do your children?

Alison : Do you Personally feel different? Yeah.

Hadley: Yeah, it’s a little bit. I was actually just talking to my therapist about this this morning that, um. Yeah, it is, it’s been, um, it’s it has been sometimes I kind of want to, like, run back to that comfort of, you know, um, that. But I feel like from doing my book and speaking tour recently and getting to meet hundreds of people, that it is having a really positive impact. But it can be scary to be so out there and have so many people, um, kind of looking at me because I did have a little comfort zone of just taking care of my patients and, you know, going home and not going to the grocery store and having people stop me. And it’s it’s been an adjustment, but obviously it’s been a very positive one. And my therapist is like, we’re going to get through this. We’ve been through it. We’re getting through it as long as you want to. And I was like, I think it’s positive. She’s like, okay, that’s right.

Alison : That’s right.  Yeah, the universe has plans for us sometimes that we can’t even imagine. And yeah, put yourself in a place and you’re like, wow, like…

Jean: oh my gosh.

Alison : Well, it’s the Talking Heads…(the song) How did I get here? You know?

Jean: Exactly right. And you’re communicating such a beautiful message, Hadley. And it certainly comes from such a beautiful soul…yours.

Hadley: Thank you.

Jean: And, um, you know, we wish you all the best.

Alison : You’re just so lovely and really, you know, and and I heard this is becoming a series?

Hadley: Yes. NBC Universal is turning it into a scripted series. And I’m super excited. We have a great producer on board that hasn’t been announced yet, and I’m an executive producer, and I’m excited for it. I think that they’re going to really, uh, display it in the correct light. I feel like we don’t really see peaceful deaths on TV at all. And, um, I’m really excited for people to see that side.

Alison : It’s really great, you know? You know, Touched by an Angel affected a lot of people. And it went on for years because I think people need, especially in these days, hope. And I think you’ve given people a different way to view something that has been so deemed as scary or uncomfortable. So you really are, um, you know, an angel walking around.

Hadley: Thank you.

Alison : You’re doing the good work. You’re a champion. Thank you so much.

Hadley: Thank you, I appreciate that.

Alison : And I love this room that you redecorated.

Hadley: Oh thank you.

Alison : I saw it on Instagram. I’m like oh… Yeah she’s got another career happening!

Hadley:  I have a really good friend, Lexi from social media. And she, uh, she’ll send me mockups on stuff, so I can’t take too much credit for that.

Alison : Well, you’re wearing it. Well, my friend, uh.

Hadley: Thank you.

Jean: Uh, you deserve everything that’s really beautiful in this world.

Alison : Thank you so much for talking with us.

Hadley: Thank you.

Alison : Have a beautiful day.

Hadley: Yes, thanks. Bye bye.

Alison : Oh my gosh. She is an like an angel.

Jean: If you who else would you want as a stranger to be by b your bedside when you are taking your last breath? I mean, yes, your loved ones, that’s true, but then next would be Hadley, Nurse Hadley.

Alison : And I think all hospices, like you brought up all hospice nurses , really come with something special.

Jean: Right. And and because that time, that that very in-between time, as Nurse Hadley puts it, uh, is so, it’s so special or vulnerable. Extraordinary. I mean, it’s not just your day to day, but…  you know, these these nurses that that help bridge the physical life to the spiritual life are really, um, doing magnanimous work.

Alison : And I really appreciated what you shared about about Alex. And because I think so many times, people go through something like this or a trauma, and they can’t picture anyone else as having, yeah, problems with it or challenges. And so I think it’s really great to read Hadley’s book and to begin a talk, begin to talk about this in a discussion about this, because death is very important.

Jean: It is. I don’t know where I read this quote, but or this statement, but someone said it’s the most, the biggest spiritual experience anyone has. And when you think about it, it’s so true. And , um, I’m glad that we’re all opening up more and more to the spiritual, right, not just the physical.

Alison : We hope you found this, uh, comforting. And really, we can’t recommend the In-Between more. It’s a beautiful, beautiful book. And a glimpse into something that we don’t often have the opportunity to see.

Jean: No, we don’t give a lot of time and attention to this very reverent topic. So thank you everyone.

Alison : Have a great day.

Jean: I hope you …  Eat the cake.

Alison : Yes, Let’s go do that.  I love that.

Jean: What’s your favorite cake?

Alison : Oh well, I like all of them. Now I’m moving into sort of like a lemon. Um, uh, orange. I’m moving into those because I’m not doing as much chocolate. What about you?

Jean: I’m a big coconut fan.

Alison : Oh, yes.

Jean: and I also love German chocolate cake.

Alison : I know you do.

Jean: Which Alex loved also.

Alison : I know he loved it. Well, have a great day… we have to eat cake now. Okay, bye.