Transcript
Alison: I would like, I would like to hear about us. Go ahead. We both inhaled… There’s no air left in the closet.
Jean : We have to find a better place to do this than in, than my closet.
Alison: Although it’s nice in here, we have to try back at my house again. We just got back from trips.
Jean : We did. Yes. You were up in San Francisco.
Alison: And you were in Sedona. We go to the s words.
Jean : That’s right. Right. Well, I have to say, Sedona was absolutely beautiful. It snowed, which is very rare. So I thought that was like a wink from God. Yeah,
Alison: I love that. Yeah. And I was in San Francisco. It Didn’t snow, but it was beautiful. We had such a great time visiting my eldest, our eldest child. And, um, you know, I realized you travel a lot… I realize I rarely travel and I like it, and I also don’t like it. Do you feel that mixed way or do you just hands down like it?
Jean : I like it, I don’t like to do big trips back to back, but I do enjoy traveling.
Alison: Like, do you go somewhere and then go? I want to go home.
Jean : Yeah, maybe after ten days I start itching for that. Especially if I don’t talk to you or my daughter or Matt.
Alison: I guess I felt like about halfway through, or maybe not even halfway, just a little bit of the way through. I’m like, I could go home now. Yeah. And then like, you perk up a bit.
Jean : Yeah. I think that’s a great feeling.
Alison: Yeah. It was, it was excellent. Yeah. And, um, and I think traveling is interesting because you are seeing things with new eyes that you haven’t seen before. Yeah. Do you know which I kind of love?
Jean : I totally agree, and I think for me it has brought about a new type of self-reliance. Because when I would travel with Alex, he took care of everything. He held the passports. He he had the airline tickets. It was just- I followed Alex through the airport and, you know, and now when I travel, I have to really be mindful of where did I put my tickets?
Alison: Right. That’s good.
Jean : Do I have my luggage? Did I leave it in the bathroom? You know, so I don’t have exactly.
Alison: Are my shoes on? Yes. I’m leaving the plane with my shoes. That’s exactly it. But that’s good growth.
Jean : Yeah. It is.
Alison: It’s growth. And speaking of growth, we have the best guests today, right?
Jean : We do.
Alison: They are amazing. And, um, they’re your friends. So why don’t you introduce them? Well, she’s your friend.
Jean : Well, I know Liz from the the church that we both went to. We are both we are both practitioners there. And oh, Allison, I was surprised to know that Paul is a practitioner as well, which doesn’t surprise me the way he thinks. Um, so it’s Liz and Paul Raci.
Alison: he’s a fantastic actor. They’re both, First of all, they’re both fantastic people. He’s a fantastic actor. That was in sound of the Sound of Metal and most recently Sing Sing. Oh, what a great movie that that is, huh? We want everyone to see it and just champion rehabilitation through art. Right.
Jean : And the acronym is RTA. And as you just said, rehabilitation through arts. It is such a powerful program to assist men in prison and women, I’m sure in prison as well incarcerated through the arts.
Alison: And so here, take a listen. Fantastic.
Paul : Hey, there.
Alison: Hi. How are you?
Paul : Great. I’m going to turn the volume up a little bit because I had to turn down. There you go. Hello there.
Jean : Hi, Paul. Hi, Liz.
Liz: How are you guys?
Alison: Great. I’m Alison,
Liz: Nice to meet you.
Jean : And I was sharing with Alison that Liz and I go way back, although we didn’t really talk so much at church because you (Liz) were in the teen church, and I was more in the office. But I certainly knew when you were on the grounds. And, um, I remember the great concerts you put on at the church. I think that was with your daughter playing in in the band. Yeah.
Alison: That’s fantastic. Thank you both so much for talking with us. You know, Paul, I’ve been a big fan of yours for a while now, and you’re so talented and so authentic in everything you do. So I really appreciate you talking to us about this incredible movie. Sing sing .
Paul : Yeah, well, thank you for your kind words. Uh, I’m just so happy to be doing what I’m doing in some very important movies, so it’s very good for me.
Alison: Well, sound of Metal, you were fantastic. And this one, I think I cried through this whole film.
Paul : Yeah, it’s kind of hard, but the movie is so heartfelt and made, uh, with these two young guys that wanted to make a movie about the incarceration system with the way the whole the whole thing unfolded. Finally, using about 9 or 11 of the actual inmates who served time. And they’re finally out, and now they’re playing themselves in the movie all the way down to I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but these two young men that made the movie Gregg Kidder and, uh, Clint Bentley. Bentley I was gonna say Huntley, but Bentley, the two young guys that, uh, had an idea that they wanted to have a new kind of a system where it’s equal parity all the way around for people that make movies. Now, just think about this. Think about anybody that like Amazon, uh, Netflix, Apple, all these streaming platforms that have tons of money. I mean, this much money. And they make the movie and then they give all the actors about this much apiece for the time being, and then they keep making it the, the money as time goes along. This new paradigm, This new model makes sure that everybody that worked on the movie, including the costume designer, uh, the editor, the cinematographer, everybody, including the biggest star in the movie, Colman Domingo, of course. And then there’s me. I’m after him. And then there’s other well, everybody got paid the same thing.
Paul : So to understand what that looks like in the big picture is as the movie grows and it’s, uh, as it spreads around the globe, and the more people that see it, the more money it makes. And in the old paradigm, uh, or uh system, the usual, the usual, the, the producers get this much, they keep getting this much and all. Well, now this everybody gets the same. Everybody, including the guy who wrote the editor notes, including the as I said, the the press notes, the press notes, uh, the, uh, the costumer. This is unheard of. Everybody’s getting the same checks, and we’ve already received a few checks along the way. And I have to say, it’s not like nothing I’ve ever experienced. And to think that the nine or 10 or 11 guys that are in the movie that are formerly incarcerated, this is their first movie. They’re getting the same checks that I’m getting that Coleman is getting, and it’s nothing like I’ve ever experienced before. So. And they’re telling their own story is what I’m trying to come back to. My point about who more deserves this than the guys who actually actually lived the experience in Sing Sing went through this RTA program. Now they’re on the other side. And so they’re feeling like they’re feeling like actors. Yeah, they’re pursuing careers. All of them.
Paul : Every single one of them. So, uh, I don’t know how I got off on that, but I just want to make the point about the that new system. And I’ve had, uh, other producers that have had conversations with big time producers in this city who ask me, well, how did this parity system work? I kind of like to try that myself. So don’t think it’s not going to spread because it is already people are rethinking. Now we just had you know, we went through Covid, the strike, all these things that have the fires, everything I could possibly think of to cripple our industry here in Los Angeles. It’s almost like you take it personal, like what’s going on here? But they’re trying. They’re already noticing that there’s another way to do it. And so this is a tiny, you know, like a little window into the future of what it may be like. And I think it’s for the better for the industry, for actors and people that that want to get a foot into the industry. But it’s so locked down with everybody’s got all the power up there. This kind of weakened that a little bit. And, uh, I don’t know if I should say that as really it’s strengthened it to a point where everybody can get a little piece of the pie. Yeah. Or more than they had.
Liz: And also, you know, this particular film, we’re just hoping, um, divine G. Whitfield who Colman played, um, he, he was, you know, wrongly incarcerated, finally was released, and he’s trying to get exonerated. So he was nominated for a BAFTA award for Adapted screenplay. And he couldn’t go to the BAFTA Awards because he’s a felon, but he was wrongly incarcerated. So we’re hoping that this also will just bring to the forefront. Hey, everybody, pay attention. And we’re we’re sending around this, um, uh, thing to sign to support ivine G, to be exonerated.
Paul : Of a crime he never committed.
Liz: Exactly. So that he can travel the world unencumbered. Mhm.
Paul : And this is just one example, right of, uh, the wrongs that have been done to so many of our incarcerated, uh, people. I don’t want to say people of color. There’s also other guys that I as I get deeper into this, there’s a lot of guys that have been wrongly accused and that it’s just dropped. And then they they find out later on. That’s why I’m absolutely against a capital punishment. This is insane. Too many guys have been.
Liz: Wrongly incarcerated.
Paul : And wrongly executed… There’s no there’s no reason for it. There’s no reason for that. So there’s so many things that have to be done. But this is– Sing Sing is a great beginning for a different way to look at, uh, incarceration and, um, the cruelties of it, the inhumanity of it, The non rehabilitation. It’s not rehabilitation it’s punishment. It’s punitive, in most cases.
Alison: You know in this… there were no tropes in this.
Paul : Exactly.
Jean : What does Trope mean?
Alison: Like uh like a gang fight or uh like a thing that you would expect. The expectation is to see in a prison movie because…
Paul : Yeah. Because what we’ve seen, like, how about Oz? A lot of rape, a lot… You know what? Clarence Macklin, the guy who, uh played Divine Eye in the movie…the guy that made the big sensation he was almost nominated for.
Alison: Right.
Paul : He says, Paul, I never saw myself, uh, portrayed– i’ve seen every prison movie around, while he was in prison for all those years. And they show these prison movies , I never saw myself up on the screen. You weren’t thinking about sex back here. This is insane. But Sing-Sing, for the first time, you see that behind the walls of Sing-Sing, there are guys that are actually trying to improve, change their lives. They realize that now after doing crimes when they’re 18 or 19, and now they’re like 30. Oh my God.
Liz: And so many of them said, you know, had I been introduced to this program when I was 14, 15, 16, I never would have ended up here.
Paul : Had they met a teacher like this acting teacher that came into the prison.
Jean : So let’s talk about the program – RTA. What does it stand for, for our audience and and what is RTA?
Liz: It’s rehabilitation through the arts.
Paul : So Brent Buell, the guy I played in the movie, wanted to use an acting teacher. He wanted to bring a program into the prison. Everybody told him he was crazy, that he’d be taken advantage of. That this was a crazy idea. And again, uh, when I think about the people I grew up with in Chicago, um, I don’t want to…. I’m trying to not characterize it too mega like. But people people believe in this punitive system. I hear it in, uh, right wing radio all the time, you know, because I like to listen to the other side and, you know, it’s like these guys got to be put away. Yeah. And punished. But you have no idea what his history is up until the point where he was incarcerated now. So, uh, he brought the program in there and ended up making the best friends of his life in the behind the walls of Sing Sing, because he met some guys that were craving for some kind of salvation. Not salvation on the outside, but their own salvation. What can make me feel whole, complete, like I’m doing something and acting happened to be that avenue for a lot of these guys, just like, uh, and I always liken it to myself. When I got out of Vietnam, I went in 1969 when I was 21. I got out four years later, uh, totally confused and addicted to everything. And then I met an acting teacher, and I was like, wait, I had this awakening of, oh, this is what I’m supposed to be doing. This is what these guys went through in the walls of Sing Sing. Great stuff. They did 12 Angry Men, Midsummer Night’s Dream. They’re doing plays and really getting involved and having something to live for while they’re serving a 35 year sentence.
Liz: And the interesting thing is that we need this program to really spread because RTA has expanded. It’s not just theatre. There’s various prisons right now doing RTA, but they’re doing it as dance. They’re doing it as poetry. You know, they’re doing it as hip hop. In other words, is rap art. The thing is, art, whatever, whatever that looks like, whatever that form is of art, they’re just finding art in their soul. That then helps to heal. And we need that to be proliferated everywhere.
Paul : Um, proliferated.
Liz: That’s right.. What he just said.
Paul : Can you tell we’re married?
Alison: I love it.
Liz: 35 years married. Um, but it’s only in six prisons in New York.
Paul : There are a few throughout the country.
Liz: It should be in every prision.
Paul : It should be, but, you know, uh, as you see the trope or the idea, the old ideas of, you know, God, when I was a kid, James Cagney in White Heat. Hey, Ma, top of the world, all these prison things, and you see them as tough guys. Uh, they’re no angels. All these movies I grew up with, those are tropes of what these guys are like. You have no idea. These are. They’re just like you and me. Yeah. Yeah. I made a mistake when they were not even 21. Yeah. Wow. And there’s so many of them because of what’s going on in our country. Uh, because of the class system or the, uh, things that are going on in our inner cities where where guys feel more at home with gangs and doing their bidding rather than, uh, doing your bidding to an acting teacher who wants to help you heal the world through art.
Liz: Yeah. And what struck me when Paul got done shooting and came back home is, you know, he’d spent, uh, his dressing room was a cellblock, so he didn’t want to go in there because they were they’re actually shooting in prison.
Paul : We’re actually in a facility. Yeah.
Liz: And the prison where they were actually shooting is all closed off. The windows didn’t open. It was hot as can be. And, you know, so that was the only place to really hang out. So he hung out with all these guys, some wrongly incarcerated, some who as a young man on the wrong path did commit a crime. And what when Paul came home, what he said to me was, I just see humanity in all of them. I see humanity in all of it. And I’m like, that’s what we hope this film will bring to the country, to the world. There’s humanity in all of us. Yeah.
Paul : It used to be a softening around this whole idea of how we incarcerate men and women and then treat them in this punitive fashion. That’s not rehabilitation. And you’re not even trying to rehabilitate. There’s so much humanity there. it’s heartbreaking… Heartbreaking.
Alison: Did you shoot in Sing-sing?
Paul : We shot in a place, like, kind of kitty corner from Sing Sing. Sing Sing is Still an operational prison. There was another facility right in the area that was empty, and that was a depressing place to be. No, uh, they’d have a gigantic fan going on in this room, and then we had to turn the fan off and shoot a scene, and then you’re shvitzing after, you know, it’s like, oh, my God, this is so hot here.
Liz: Welcome to Hollywood.
Alison: Yeah.
Liz: So glamorous.
Paul : But you know what? This film, um, could not be shot in Hollywood because they wouldn’t do it, right. This was shot in a real place.These guys that were…. Now they’re out of prison. Now they got to go back in to shoot this movie and put these prison greens back on. Clarence just said, God, this itches so. It’s just making me feel so uncomfortable and and, you know, looking behind my shoulder and I can understand that. Um, but it was the perfect place to shoot. What a wonderful experience. These guys are just great.
Alison: Was it was it, um, had you been in a prison before, Paul?
Paul : Oh, yeah. Well, that’s another thing about me. I’ve heard that question many times. You know, for the last 40 years, I’ve been a sign language interpreter in the Los Angeles, uh, court system. An American Sign Language interpreter. I’ve been in many prisons for interviews with attorneys, so I’ve been there many times. It wasn’t my first rodeo in a prison. I knew what it felt like. I’ve been in lockups all the time doing interviews before we go into court, see the judge. This is my while I was a struggling actor trying to make it. I was doing that. That was my job. That’s why I bought this house. That’s how I put my kid through college, not with Hollywood money. Then after I was all done. Isn’t that weird how life is? After I was all done with putting my kid through college? All done with that. Uh, it really just been very comfortable with who I am. Then I get this big break doing a movie, which I’d been acting in theater all that time, trying to be an actor and just doing theater at Deaf West Theatre wherever I could and keeping my chops up. And then finally, when the time came at the age of, uh.
Liz: 74.
Paul : No, no. Well, I was I was younger than that, I was 70.
Alison: Oh, you were a spring chicken.
Paul : I was, I was 69 or 70 when I got the nomination. Yeah. That was life changing. Just like life changing overnight. Um, so I’m kind of, uh, happy with the way it happened. I got to live my life and do the things that I needed to do. Uh.
Liz: All that time, the most important thing to you was raising our daughter.
Paul : Yeah. Yeah, I was trying to raise my daughter. Keep her happy.
Liz: And that’s easy. Yeah.
Alison: That’s beautiful though.
Paul : Yeah. It is. It’s totally beautiful.
Alison: Yeah. Yeah, right.
Alison: Did you. Do you feel that this movie brought you closer to any sort of spiritual understanding for yourself?
Paul : Uh, that’s a good question, but, um, no, I don’t think so. I think it just deepened it. I’d already had, you know, Liz and I trained at Agape International Spiritual Center. We became practitioners there. We ran a few ministries there. We had all this God like 15 years of service there. That’s another thing I’ve been serving all those years. And, uh, so when I actually got the nomination after all that, I thought, well, you know what? Okay. Uh, things happen for the best, but it deepened my and strengthened what I already knew, which is that all there is is one thing going on. Uh, everything’s going to be okay.
Jean : Mhm.
Paul : It’s going to be fine. I mean, I know everybody’s going through, but, uh, you really have to listen…. The biggest lesson I learned from becoming a practitioner was this one guy says, look, the universe is like a yes machine. So whatever you say out loud, that goes right to the universe. And the universe says, yes. So if you say, um, you know, I’m not worth anything. The universe goes great… you’re not, and here’s some more of that, Paul. Or how about, I just, i can’t make it, i’m going paycheck to paycheck to the universe goes, great… you like that, don’t you? You’re going to get more of that. So I learned quickly and it’s still a ping pong game because you’re going back and forth of, uh, I have to, I must, it doesn’t serve me to think that way because the universe always says, yes. If I say life is horrible, the universe says, yes. How about… , life is horrible… The universe goes, oh you’re right. Life is good. Life is… There’s always enough to go around. The universe goes. Yeah. You’re right. So that’s the, that’s the change you got to make or the shift. Yeah, I think I make that little click of, i’m not going to say that anymore because the universe really gives you what you put out… The Universes says, yes.
Alison: Yeah.
Jean : Right, right.
Liz: It’s interesting because with all this, um, craziness going on in our country right now, it can be very weighing on your heart and your soul and your mind. And so we’re doing this thing like when we see something new or hear something new, you know, on the news or whatever. And I go, oh, it’s every day we run to each other and go, I am unbotherable… Are you unbothered?
Paul : I’m unbothered. You can’t bother me.
Alison: Oh, I love that.
Jean : Do you guys have a have a spiritual, like a practice in the morning together or anything that you.
Liz: Meditation.
Paul : The only thing we do together is we have sex. The other is our pray.
Jean : Do you want us to keep that in the interview?
Alison: Yes.
Paul : You know, I think it’s the… That’s that’s kind of the glue.
Liz: Okay. 35 years married. He’s still the sexiest thing I’ve ever laid eyes on. True.
Paul : You got that?
Alison: I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
Paul : No, no. She’s got her thing. I have my thing.
Liz: He’s more of a Buddhist. And, you know, from North Hollywood, I have a different kind of practice. But he’s more of a Buddhist. But still, practice is practice. One is oneness. Love is love.
Paul : But one thing we do have is agreement. And we are in agreement on, uh, not speaking. Boy, it’s so easy to slip off that thing and move over to things. This is this is this is not. It’s too easy. I’m so everybody’s influenceable or influencers out there or whatever. Um, no I’m not. It doesn’t bother me. I don’t care what that guy is doing in the I don’t care, I don’t care. I’ve got what I have to accomplish today, and thank God, uh, or whatever you want to thank. Sing Sing was a gift in my lap. And it’s out to do more and more good. More and more good. Now I’m on to the next project.
Jean : Which is. Tell us about your next project.
Paul : I have several.
Liz: He’s got like so many.
Alison: Oh. I love that.
Paul : Yeah, it’s very good.
Jean : Okay, great.
Paul : Uh, I’ll tell you one thing. That kind of fell in my lap is, uh, again, there’s this young man, uh, brilliant young man who wrote a script about solitary confinement and the horrors of that. Uh, these guys in solitary confinement talk about the punitive system. Yeah. These guys are not even allowed to listen to a Dodger game in solitary confinement for 13, 14 years at a time. So I’m. I’m delving into that subject. There’s a script that we’re looking at right now that that might get into that. This this is horrible. This is this is not the way humanity should be treating humanity. I don’t care what’s happened. There’s a story behind every story, and there’s got to be a little bit of, uh, uh, dare I say it, uh, you know, forgiveness. Yeah, I set it all out, but I don’t know. Yeah.
Alison: Yeah, that’s one of our favorite words.
Jean : Yeah and compassion and forgiveness. Right? And I think for me watching… Let’s go back to Sing Sing since, uh, I was really drawn to how the character you played Paul Brent, how he elicited the humanness from these men that have been so armored.
Paul : Yeah.
Jean : Armored their feelings. Right. And how this acting coach helps them get in touch and and I thought and so one of the…. So can you talk about that a little bit how how your character helped…
Paul : It was good to see him on the set. He was right there.
Alison: Wow.
Paul : I could see when we were during lunchtime, all the guys would gather around him and he was like this guy that they just respected and and he absolutely respects them and their humanness and with their foibles and everything, the whole thing there. And so I just was there, uh, noticing their relationship and how they interacted. So that gave me a good beat and how I could act with them when the cameras went on. In other words, everybody’s just mano a mano, just equal, uh, trying to get some work done here. Um, he’s a he’s this guy is, uh, a real he’s a good man. He. When a lot of these 3 or 4 of these guys got out of their incarceration period had nowhere to go, him and his wife, Janice, would take them into their own house. Oh. How many? Let’s be honest here. Come on. That’s a tall order. Take them into their house for….
Liz: Weeks and weeks and weeks, helping them find a job, getting all their papers in order, setting them up someplace for weeks.
Paul : Yeah. When I got back from Vietnam, uh, years and years ago in my first marriage, I had a Vietnam buddy that came back and I put him up in my house and he ripped me off. He stole all my cash and left, uh, you know, so… But that just shows you, uh, a that was disappointing.
Alison: Yeah.
Paul : And he was a friend of mine, but he didn’t. He was in a he was in firefights. He was in the jungle. I wasn’t in the jungle. I was a medic on a ship. I was doing another job. So my heart goes out to him and I wish him well, whatever happened to him. But, that’s the kind of thing that people warned Brent against. Don’t take these guys into your house. But he did. He’s a real man and I’m happy to be friends with him and his wife right now. But he’s a good man who had good intentions, and he’s spreading the word and trying to get this program out there more, which absolutely deserves to happen. You know.
Alison: I love that you equate a real man with vulnerability and kindness, because I think men have gotten them a message that does not always say that. And, um, my son, you know, is is 25 and he is um, I think it’s hard to be a man. Did you get close to these guys or did you? Do you feel like now? Like you’ve made, like, lifelong friends?
Paul : Yeah, yeah. A couple of guys still call me on the phone.
Liz: We were doing the awards and festival circuit together. We all, you know, we were all hanging around for many days and traveling here and hanging out, and, um. Yeah, I consider them family. Every one of them.
Paul : Yeah. But that connection, that bond actually happened while we were filming. We’d be having lunch every day, and a guy would tell me how it happened. I ask this guy, how did you end up in Sing Sing? He told me this this weird, fantastical story of a soprano type guy in new Jersey.
Alison: Wow.
Paul : You know, a hit man fulfilling a job. And then the other guy squealed on him. And then now they’re in Sing Sing for 33 years.
Alison: Wow.
Paul : And every single one of these guys would tell me their stories, and they would say, you know what? If I hadn’t met Brent Buell when I was 19? Oh, my God, my life would have been different. And I know, I know.
Liz: Art heals.
Paul : Art heals. That’s that really is the point. It really can. And it does.
Alison: Did you cry a lot on the set?
Liz: He cries a lot. All the time.
Alison: Does he. Because I just seeing you makes me wanna cry.
Paul : She’s talking about the sex. HAHAHAH,Um it’s an emotional uh place to be at. You just it’s, a great bubble to be in. It was only like a 19 day shoot. So you’re in this bubble and there’s all this stuff going on and all these emotions going back and forth during improvs and talking about it. It’s right underneath the surface. So that for me as a professional, you’ve just got to realize what’s going on here. And then at the right moment you let it out. But these guys were doing a great job, man, when I think about, uh, some of the stuff they did, like I say, it was right there on the surface, ready to pop out. Um, when the time came and they were doing a great job. Dino is one example. Uh, the big, big black guy was….Dino blew me away in that scene. That’s in the movie he talks about… You know, we’re here to put on nice clothes and dance around and, oh my God, sorry…(PAUL STARTS TEARING UP).
Liz: See, he cries all the time.
Paul : Okay. But he it’s really an amazing moment because he was being so real that it blew us all away.
Liz: Yeah. And a lot of, um, a lot of Paul stuff when he was like leading them through a meditation or a thing that was improvised.
Alison: Wow. I was going to ask that. That’s amazing.
Jean : Oh, I love those.
Paul : They would just say, Paul, lead them in because they know I’ve been, uh, a practitioner and minister. So I would just lead them through a meditation and, uh, wow… The one around the circle where they’re all talking about.—-. That’s all real. That’s all that scene is for real.
Jean : And that shows how powerful the mind is, how powerful our thoughts, our thoughts are. And that you can say, okay, think about your most favorite place to be.
Paul : Right
Jean : oh, and you know, I never do that. I mean, sometimes I’ll do that, but but to go, like, what’s my favorite place? And now what am I feeling. Because you, we’re so easily drawn into what feels the bad.
Paul : Which is what I’m trying to say about that universe thing, because when you do that, Jean, when you do that, when you go, what’s my favorite place? Then the universe goes, how about if I gave you some more of that? Just like an algorithm, you know, these algorithms on Facebook, when you click something –like, I want to buy a pair of boots and the algorithm goes, oh, you like boots? Here’s a whole bunch of more boots. That’s what I’m talking about. The mind goes, I want to think about my favorite place. I remember being with my wife on a picnic. We had a bottle of wine. I love that the universe goes…. Would you like some more of that? Okay. Yeah, that’s the whole thing, right? It’s just awesome.
Jean : Awesome. So Paul and Liz is there, um, because we’re while we’re already half an hour in, but is there like a website that our listeners can go to to look and to maybe help this program.
Liz: Yeah. RTA.com.
Jean : RTA– so simple
Paul : you’re going to a rabbit hole.
Liz: they need all kinds of support Yeah. Financial And also people just to come in and support the program in person. RTA rehabilitation through the Arts.
Paul : Or Maybe it will help somebody look at the system. We have the penal system we have right now and go. Mm mm. It’s something’s wrong with that.
Liz: How about if we don’t have corporations run our prisons anymore? Mm.
Alison: I know.
Liz: How do we change that?
Jean : Yeah. You know, as I was getting ready for this interview. I was listening to an interview you did ,Paul, with someone, and you were saying how in indigenous communities, the person that has been that is being reprimanded or being looked at– the community embraces them with love rather than you did this wrong, you’re a loser. They were more like, you’re my beloved grandson. Yeah.
Paul : Yeah, right.
Liz: That’s so true.
Paul : They put them in the middle of a circle to surround them, and I say, you know, I remember when you were ten years old.
Liz: And you helped my grandma do this, and I, you know, instead of what you just did wrong, how you were just egregious in your behavior. No. We’re going to remember who you really are. Let’s all come together and remember who you are. And then you can let that go, and you can forgive yourself and move forward.
Paul : That doesn’t happen.
Liz: Not in America.
Paul : Not in our current incarcerations. No.
Alison: Liz, what you’re saying is so perfect about remembrance, remembering who we are.
Paul : Right
Alison: And that’s why this movie is so, you know, you know, it had tones of, um, bits of Shawshank Redemption.
Paul : Yeah, a little bit.
Alison: Because they they’re such…. You fall in love with all these people. You fall in love with them. You know, we fell in love with you and all the characters and. And it’s remembering the truth of who we are. Did you did you raise your child that way? Like, do you feel….
Paul : Yeah.
Liz: It’s so funny because, you know, we raised her that way and we, you know, taught her the spiritual principles that we believe in. And I’m like, it’s not taking, it’s not taking. It’s just doesn’t take. And then and then she goes off to college and she calls me and she goes, you know, mom, I find if I meditate first thing in the morning, I have a better day. I’m like, it took!! IT TOOK!!!
Alison: That’s right.
Paul : And there’s still there’s still she’s out there on her own now, but there’s still the temptations, as we were talking about, of falling off that, uh, that mountaintop of understanding and going with what the influence is saying. What what CNN is saying. What Fox news. Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba. And then you start to believe it. And that’s that’s where you need to grow some spiritual balls.
Liz: But when she falls off that place, she’ll text me, give me an affirmation mom.
Jean : Very nice.
Paul : Yeah. It’s not you know, it’s it’s difficult, it’s a challenge. But um I don’t know uh, we’ve been on it so strongly lately. Uh, we feel good about what’s going on. So I know it doesn’t look good right now, but…
Liz: We’re not going into the quagmire.
Paul : No, it’s… It’s really all happening for the best. And it’ll take a while, but, you know, it goes this way, this way, that way. But I am going to stay on point. I’m unbotherable— how about you?
Jean : UNBOTHERABLE…I love that.
Liz: We’re focusing on the good.
Alison: That’s right, that’s right.
Paul : Yeah. And that’s important.
Alison: Did you want to ask our last two questions?
Jean : Sure. Okay. So we’re going to wrap up, you guys.
Alison: And thank you so much.
Jean : This has been Awesome, I know I could have, I know both of us could have chatted with you all afternoon. But we’re going to wrap up pretty soon here with the last two questions. And they are, what does inside wink mean to you?
Paul : Inside wink. I like the way you, uh. I’ve never heard it described that way before. Uh, you know, I’m a coder. I’m a child of deaf adults. You probably saw the movie, uh, and my parents were deaf. I grew up in the 50s, and, um, I’ve always called it my superpower, but you call it inside wink- – for me, um, I grew up watching my parents. There was no texting. There was no closed captioning. There was there was a very closed society to my parents who were deaf. But I saw them struggle through this whole existence and raise four kids. I saw their special life of being excluded from our hearing culture, from television. No, no closed captioning on TV in the 50s and 60s no bonanza where you could read the story. None of that until you know the recent history. So my inside wink is I have empathy for anybody who is other than I’ve always had empathy for anybody who is considered to be less than. My mother made that very clear when I was about seven years old about, uh, what it feels to be less than. So my inside wink is I have empathy and I support anybody that I can see that’s feeling less than, because of my parents and the way I was brought up. That’s my inside wink.
Liz: And mine is in sign language. You would do this— we’re in agreement- simpatico- we understand.
Alison: Oh, I love that. That’s perfect. That’s a beautiful. Those are beautiful. And they’re so you. They’re both so perfect for you guys. That’s beautiful. And could you tell me what your favorite would be? Pie. Cake or ice cream?
Paul : Pie!
Liz: Pie!
Paul : Yeah. It’s like an old fashioned, uh, Chicago thing. Pie was always blueberry pie. Strawberry pie, apple pie, strawberry rhubarb pie with a scoop of ice cream. I’ve always liked pie. A really good pie with a good crust. I had two grandmothers that were very good at it. So I have to say pie. Pumpkin pie– i could go on forever.
Alison: Yeah….Another hour passes. Thank you so much. It’s so wonderful to meet you both and just see what …. Such a beautiful, great couple. Yeah, this 35 years. It’s a real testament. Thank you.
Liz: And just keeps getting better and better.
Jean : Yeah that’s great. And I, I agree I have some friends that have married a long time and…
Alison: I Feel that way about my husband and.
Jean : The Really good years come… If you hang in there and do the forgiveness and work on yourself, uh, it pays off. And, um, Liz, I do have to say I was sharing with Allison. You were I said, I don’t really know Liz that well, but boy, was I just remember her being really hip at the church. And I loved seeing you there. And you’re you’re just as bright and beautiful as ever.
Alison: And, Paul, you really you just don’t even seem like you’re acting when you’re acting.
Paul : Well that’s good. That’s a compliment, because that’s what it’s supposed to be.
Liz: Be well.
Paul : lovely.
Jean : Many Blessings.
Speaker3: Okay. You too.
Alison: Bye.
Jean : Bye.
Jean : Okay. I’m on Cloud nine.
Alison: Yeah. They are so… What an incredibly lovely couple. And they’re just so warm and generous.
Jean : And wise … Very, very wise. I love that they are non…
Alison: Unbotherable.
Jean : Unbotherable.
Jean : Thank you, Paul and Liz…We’re going to stay unbothered. That was genius.
Alison: And he they they are so passionate. And boy, he he was so vulnerable. He cried a couple of times and just incredibly sweet. And she’s lovely. Like, you really see that they’re a team.
Jean : Absolutely.
Alison: You know, a real marriage, that’s a team. And, you know, really beautiful.
Jean : Yeah. Please see, Sing Sing. And if you want more information on RTA – the website is just, RTA.com.
Jean : And learn about this amazing program that is shifting and changing lives.
Alison: Yeah. Just really it it inspired me so much.
Jean : Same.
Alison: But that was fantastic. So thank you Paul. Thank you Liz.
Jean : Right. And thank you Winkers.
Alison: Winkers.
Jean : That’s that’s going to be our new name for our listeners…winkers.
Alison: and be unbothered.
Jean : Yes.
Alison: Bye.
