Podcast Episode 56: Dr. Amy Robbins

\Jean: Okay. Are we rolling?

Alison: We are. We’re rolling. Here we are. We’re doing it. Um. We are… I don’t know when this is going to, you know, be on the air, because usually you just could be listened to anytime. But I did have to mention that we are, um, at the tail end, hopefully of the fires. And we just want to send our love and kindness to everyone involved and to thank the firefighters.

Jean: Yeah, absolutely.

Alison: True heroes.

Jean: True. talk about courageous people.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: And, uh, going through a huge transistion.

Alison: And all the people.

Jean: that’s what I mean… All the people that just— the firefighters, the people….

Alison: The families, the the helpers, you know, it just– I went to the Red Cross the other day and they were sort of helping  and you know, it almost makes you cry when you see people really come together and people helping, like the animals… And, you know–

Jean: It really shows that we, the human heart, uh, yearns for connection and supporting each other. We really do. There’s so much goodness in the world.

Alison: And that’s a perfect transition to who we are going to talk to today.

Alison: Amy Robbins.

Jean: I love her.

Alison: We love her. And we talked to her earlier, uh, last year, and we just felt such a connection with her- that we asked her to be back to talk about spirituality in 2025. And it’s going to be a perfect discussion for right now for us, I think.

Jean: 100%. And she brings forth so much practical, everyday wisdom. I’m sure our listeners will get something really juicy  and, uh, inspiring from it.

Alison: and life affirming. Well, here she is. Amy.—HI!!

Amy : Hello…  I am so sorry.. My daughter just got into college, and so I got totally. I totally lost track of time.

Alison: No, no, no, we’re I that’s what we said. We’re both like we we… Oh, she has kids, so it could be anything.

Jean: It could Be anything.

Amy : I was literally thinking all day, I’m like 3:00, 3:00, 3:00, because I cleared out my whole the rest of my day because I didn’t know what time the the decision was coming in. And it came in at two.

Jean: Congratulations.

Alison: And congratulations.

Amy : Thank you. Thank you. So we’ve just been, like, off the wall.

Jean: Sure.

Amy : We’re not expecting that she was going to get in.

Alison: Tell us everything. Where is she going?

Amy :  Michigan.

Alison: Wow.

Amy : Yeah. And my husband and I both went there,so –  but we thought she would probably get deferred.

Amy : And so she came home from school early because she didn’t want to be at school when she got the decision. And then it came in at 2:00, and it’s been like madness.

Jean: I remember those days, Amy.  It’s so fun. And it’s high energy and congratulations.

Alison: Do you want to. You want to wait?

Amy : No. I’m ready. I have, like, more energy. I am jacked up.

Alison: Can we can we use that little part about your daughter getting into Michigan, or would you prefer not to?

Amy : Sure. Is it recording? Is it recording?

Alison:  Yeah.

Alison: Okay, good. Because that’s so exciting. And that’s such an important part of life for everybody involved in your family.

Amy : It’s a big -it’s filled with a lot of emotion, for sure. It’s like the joy because you want your child to, you know, to, um, get what they want. And then it’s like the grief that’s going to settle in over the next six months, nine months, as I get ready for her to leave.

Alison: And is this your eldest child?

Amy : This is my first. Yeah.

Alison: So what do you describe that to me? Like, what do you think about that? Because we both went we both had that experience. And and it’s interesting that you’re calling it grief.

Amy : Yeah. I’m just I’m just anticipating, like, so many things, the shift in the family dynamics, the, um,– her being on her own. She’s like my pal for everything. She’s my sidekick. And so. And now I’m left in a house with three dudes.

Alison: Yep.

Amy : And a dude dog.  So I’m just like and just anticipating so much of it. Like the joy, the sadness, the excitement, the just anxiety about. I mean, I know it’s the right place. I really believe in my heart, it’s the right place for her. So that feels really good like that. Um, just knowing her personality and how she is and like, the school, obviously, because my husband and I both went there, but I think just like wanting, like, launching your child. I looked back at her baby picture, and we, um. I’ll show it to you. Okay. Because when she was born, this was that little hat that she wore in the hospital.

Jean: Oh.

Alison: And she’s got the M.

Amy : Right. We bought, we bought, we ordered a little… We didn’t know if we were having a boy or girl. We ordered the ordered the little Michigan hat and she wore it in the hospital. So it’s just like, so it’s just it’s it’s amazing.

Alison: Well, congratulations.

Amy : Thank you.

Alison: That is so Exciting.

Jean: It really is.

Jean: It’s just a beautiful time, these new beginnings and and I think, you know, I think grief happens when, when a major change happens in our lives.

Amy : Yeah.   You know, I’m, uh. Gosh, it’s just like you you guys got me with, like, all the feelings. Like the joy. I mean, I just feel, like, completely elated right now. And then you realize…

Alison: You’re glowing.

Jean: You’re like you had a natural facial.  It’s like you don’t look beautiful, but You’re glowing.

Amy : Yeah. I mean, it’s just you you want for your kids what they want, right? And you just want, you hope that they achieve what they want to achieve. I mean, it’s not about people say, well, yeah, you and your husband went there. We did. But I wanted her to be where she wanted to be, and that’s where she wanted to be. And so, it just feels it’s just wonderful to be able to experience that. Like pure joy, like the purest form of, like, happiness and joy. It’s like, you want a bottle, I want a bottle this feeling up because, it’s I mean, the hour and a half before we got on is just like screaming. And, you know, my family calling and my her grandparents calling and, um, her friends, which is so amazing to see now like, because how connected everybody is.

Alison: Yeah.

Amy : To watch like all of her friends from all over just calling and they’re all so happy for each other. It’s a beautiful thing to see your child have friends who celebrate eachother.

Alison: YAnd you know, it’s so funny when we say grief. It’s got such a bad rap. Grief. But grief is so good on some level. Like when you’re saying like grief, it’s not really grief, it’s more just, you’re expecting a lot of emotion about this person, that the whole point is to get them to go away from you, and you just want to keep them close. Right. And it’s, you know, this real interesting dichotomy and dynamic. I remember all those emotions so vividly with my kids. Like, I remember getting in the cars after you dropped them off and just bursting into tears, but not tears of sadness, It’s really, you know…

Jean: Almmost Like an accomplishment.

Amy : Mhm.

Jean: And it’s also, I think grief is, is like, you’re in a phase of, of deeper transitioning.

Alison: Yeah. That’s a great way of putting it.

Amy : Yeah. And love.

Alison: Yeah.

Amy : So much love. So much love that often walks, you know, hand in hand with grief as it’s –I think I think to think about grief, as always, something that’s bad to feel is a problem in our world. Like, it’s it’s not it’s it’s an important part of every transition in our lives, is that there is usually grief associated with it.

Alison: I totally agree. Yeah.

Jean: I don’t think you can get through the human experience without some experiencing some level of grief.

Amy : Mhm.

Jean: Otherwise you’re really you’re missing out, you know, there’s a depth to it that shows, as you just said, Amy, the love that’s there.

Amy : Um, well, and it’s also amazing just to think about, right, like in one moment– and I think this happens so often in our lives. Right? One moment that you could either feel fear, feel like such pure joy or such depth of, like sadness, like in in a moment that she opened the email, it was complete joy. But the other could have also been true like that, that she could have not gotten in. And then it would have been like sitting in that sadness of what was lost, right? Like all the loss of what she had envisioned, maybe her life would have been like, or where she had thought she was going to end up that she didn’t like. It’s just so much in these one tiny moments.

Alison: Yeah. It’s a lot like when you’re, uh, trying to get pregnant and you take that test.

Amy : Oh, yes.

Alison: You know, you’re looking at that stick like, uh, you know what I mean?

Amy : Right, right. It’s like you’re, like, trying to project onto.

Alison:  And then there are people that look at that stick that don’t want it. So, you know, there are these things that, you know, anything, you know, and, you know, we’re just, you know, this is this, this this, um, podcast won’t air right now, but we’re just going through and witnessing these fires.

Amy : Yes, I know, and how how are you both doing?

Alison: Okay.

Jean: We’re good. We’re not in the direct path, but  we’re sort of in the middle of.

Alison: Yeah, we’re in the middle.

Jean: And and, um, you know, we’re miles away from it, but you can definitely smell it in the air. And there is this sense of like, um… Unsettledness.

Alison: Yeah.

Amy : And how could there not be?

Alison: Yeah. And just the fact that, you know, you hear these people and what becomes important. Like there was one moment where, um, there was a fire started right near me. Like, literally, I could see it. So we were all out on the street looking, and, uh, we were on the– get set, get set, like, to evacuate. And so you’re walking around your house, and in the same moment, everything becomes meaningful, all these objects. And at the same time, meaningless.

Amy : Mhm.

Alison: you’re like, okay, I need this, I need this. Wait, why am I taking this? Okay, I need that. I don’t need that. And then it’s like it was right. It was the sense of what, what is important. What is meaningful to me. It’s very….

Amy : it’s surreal. It’s surreal to have those those experiences in life where it’s like these decision points. I mean, I said to my husband and my kids too, I said, what would you guys take? Like, what would it what would be the things you would take with you? And it’s so interesting because everybody’s first response, mine included, this is a this is a very, um, intimate disclosure. Here was my blankie and their blankies. Oh, I still I still sleep with a transitional object.

Alison: I, I love that.

Jean: That’s so sweet.

Amy : But but they were like, we would take our blankies. Yeah. And I thought that’s like, their most, like, comforting possession.

Jean: I did think about that because I, I was on like the third evacuation actually, Allison told me, Jean, you might have to evacuate. And I was…

Alison: For a different fire. For a different fire? Yeah.

Jean: And, um. I can feel it in my throat. In the air here. So I right away took the passports, social security, things like that. And then to Allison’s point, I was looking around and going, God, what do I take? And and I left with very few items, some pictures. I took, some pictures. I took no jewelry.

Alison: Yeah.

Jean: Yeah,  I just took sort of sentimental things, a few and that was it. And then, you know, it’s a great point to recognize, you know, what’s really important to you.

Amy : Mhm.

Jean: You know so, and not that that jewelry isn’t I love some of the pieces that my Alex had Alex had given me over the years, you know -but it wasn’t like, you know, I didn’t run for that. Right. I ran for a few of the photos. And then, you know, because everything is so digital now.

Amy : Right. Which is crazy, right? Like, now everything is just stored on, like, this little device that’s stored up there.

Jean: So it’s so it’s like, grab your phone, grab a few older photos of, you know, wedding photos. And then, um, I took my, you know, just passport and stuff like that.

Alison: And the amount of prayers, you know, to just, you know, you were you were talking the last time we talked about spirituality and we wanted to talk to you about that because you had said that that was really something. I also have to tell you something. Uh, we have, um, friends that listen to our podcast. Um, one of my friends was so taken with you. They’re like.. “Hi Vinnie”  They’re like fans of you. They want to know all about you. They’re listening to you. They had so many feelings about all your interviews. And, like, I just wanted to tell you that whenever I came across was so powerful that this this high school friend called me up like, oh, my God. Amy Robbins, huh? You got to just you got.

Amy : When I come hang out with you ladies, you’ll invite your friend.

Alison: Okay. Yeah, right. He was like, you got to get her back. I’m like, we are Friday.

Amy : Oh, I love that. Thank you. So that was. That means a lot. Thank you.

Alison: So tell me, like, what are your thoughts surrounding this year, which there is so much going on right now and how does spirituality play into it for you.

Amy : So I’m not like an astrologer or I follow that lightly because honestly, like for whatever reason, it doesn’t seem to sink in really with me, But for a long time, I think what they’ve been saying is that it was really like until and maybe through 2025, things are still going to be a little chaotic and then things are going to start to settle down, which it feels like we need.  And I have found and continue to find I have some crazy side stories, even just for what we were just talking about earlier with my daughter, that even I, I was too scared to even think that they could actually really be signs to believe it. And I feel like I heard my guides talking to me, being like, what is it going to take to get you to trust that these are real? But I find that, like really leaning into that has been helpful for me. Not just signs, not magical thinking, but leaning into trusting. And in a time where it’s I mean, look, it’s really hard to say to anybody… Oh, just trust that this is for the highest and best good like that to me, feels like spiritual bypassing, we’re in there is a lot of traumatic things happening in this world right now.

Amy : And I see spirituality is a way of helping ease some of the suffering around that. I mean, Jean, last time we talked so much about A Course in Miracles and how that has been so healing and I just and that’s a spiritual text, right? It’s not, it’s it’s a very spiritual text. And I think those connections to something bigger than us can bring us tremendous comfort in these times. And we know, based on a lot of the research from Lisa Miller out of her lab at Columbia, that spirituality is really a protective factor against many mental health issues as well. So when we have this belief system, it doesn’t insulate you from it, but it pads you a little against it, against feeling so overwhelmed by the state of everything. And I think it feels to me like so many people are just their nerves are just like raw and exposed. First of all, I think when you have a belief that there’s something bigger than just you, then you can connect to the humanity in other people… Like that you can, i mean, let’s take the fires, right? Like for those of us who, me being someone who wasn’t there but feeling like a deep connection to people that I knew that were there, even people I didn’t know.

Amy : I just had a woman on the podcast last week who was a friend of a friend that I met through the podcast, and she lost everything. She’s a psychologist and I’ve been able to… I had her tell her story on the podcast, um, I’ve helped share GoFundMe stuff for her, a wish list for her. And that to me feels so meaningful, to be able to help someone else. And I think that when we can see ourselves in someone else, and when we can have that connection to another human being, it’s it’s transformative. It’s what makes us human. It’s what makes us feel alive. And more, I think, more than anything else, is being able to just give back in that way, to be there for another person. I’m so lucky. I have a career where I constantly am able to see have that connection and that meaning making and people’s lives, and it’s so incredibly rewarding. I don’t know if I answered your question. I’m like still, like, floating up here. So I’m just allowing whatever’s coming through to come through.

Jean: No, your points were well spoken and to the point. And I do think spirituality is where people go when they are suffering in life. It’s usually the path… I know it was for me. You know, it’s something people look to because the outer world is not is no longer satisfying. It’s, they’ve been betrayed. There’s been something big and so, you know, and there’s so many different types and the whole smorgasbord of spiritual paths, you know, and you find your one, the one that speaks to you… It rings true…. And and you work with it. And you, um, like you said, Amy, I think you come to realize that your life ultimately in the beginning is about you, but then it’s about the other people that were engaged with. So but you got to get yourself together and get your thinking and get, you know, get your priorities right. And, um, there’s this beautiful quote that says, “you first have to become selfish, to become selfless.” … If you put the if you do it the other way around, it, it it can kind of backfire. So, um, you know, I think we are all in the whole, well, the United States, let’s just say, you know, we are we are missing that element, that we are spiritual beings. We’re, we’re we’re in such a a mindset of materialistic, you know, get it from the outside, then I’ll be fulfilled within. And spirituality turns that around.

Amy : Mhm. Yeah.

Jean: It’s not you know it’s a day to day choice.

Amy : Yes. Yeah. And I think it’s such a shame. And part of I feel like my quest is that it doesn’t, you don’t have to get you don’t need to be brought to your knees in order to find spirituality. Mhm. Don’t wait for that.  Start before you get to that point. Because there’s so much more excitement and joy in life when you can play… I’ll give you the examples from this week with my daughter that I didn’t want to trust.

Amy : So I’m a huge signs person. I am always speaking to the universe in signs like that’s how I communicate. And I always ask in my meditations when I’m connecting with my guides, I always ask for really concrete signs. So obviously my daughter got into school today. I’m very excited about this, and I and I think I feel like my guides are kind of always teasing me. Like, how obvious do you want us to make this for you?  Like, do we need to, like, beat you over the head with it? I’m like, yes, you do. So and it was funny because last night I was talking to a girlfriend about something, and I was saying my sister was saying she had this sign and that sign. And I said to my girlfriend, those are not signs. And she goes, when the sign lady is telling you they’re not signs, they’re not signs like that. I’m saying, like, those are not signs. Those are just other things. So I go, I’m like, in my bath last night, it’s my favorite place to just, like, decompress, and I am looking through emails and this I have an online course and this woman from my course reaches out to me and I haven’t, I haven’t been,  the course is on hiatus right now and I’m getting ready to start a new cohort.

Amy : And so we’re sort of like in this in-between, and I hadn’t heard from her, and she reached out to say, you know, something that she was struggling with with the course, and then, um, she’s headed to Ann Arbor this weekend for, for this festival. She thinks I’m familiar with the Hill auditorium and, like, kind of like a wink. And I’m thinking, okay, I don’t want to get overexcited here, but but if this comes to fruition, don’t tell me that the universe doesn’t try to communicate with us in all kinds of ways. And then my pictures on my phone today for the memories of today popped up. It was a picture of my daughter from eighth grade with her friend, and she’s fully decked in Michigan gear like head to toe hat, jersey, everything. And I’m like, okay, I might be listening. I’m not sure I’m listening yet. I’ll know for sure once it happens, right? And it’s just like, it’s those those experiences that to me, make life so playful and awe inspiring. I mean, there’s so much awe in that. It’s like, how did it happen? And it doesn’t make… And my husband, I told him last night because I didn’t tell any, I really told only my friend who I said who said this isn’t a sign, i was like, I think this might actually be a sign. So I sent her that screenshot, but I didn’t say anything because I was too nervous to jinx anything. And I sent it to my I told my husband about it and he’s like, that’s nonsense. Like, I don’t buy into that. I haven’t asked him yet if he buys into it now.

Jean: Do you ask for signs all the time, Amy?

Amy : All the time? All the time.

Jean: I think if you’re if you’re someone that does not. I think it’s a cute, like, a entertaining type thing. I mean, I asked for a sign once, and, um and I totally got it. And I wasn’t into signs asking, you know, show me a sign. Show me a sign. And when I got it, it’s like, wow, you’re so right. There is something else going on, and it’s mind blowing. It’s like, kind of bow to it. Yes, I’m I hear you.

Amy : You’re like, I surrender, I surrender to what is. It’s the most amazing fun if you want to try to create like just those little bits of joy that we were talking about earlier, like to bottle them up. Having a conversation with whatever it is the universe, a loved one, spirit guide, higher Self, and playing with the universe in that way. It’s so. It’s a mind blowing experience. I was going to say something else, but I don’t know. It’s a it’s such a mind blowing experience. Like even as we’re talking, I’m thinking about how a couple weeks ago, my daughter was like freaking out because she was so anxious about this and I had just gotten in the car and I was talking to my mom and I was thinking, God help me. Like, I, how am I going to survive this next two weeks, two months, six months? I didn’t know how long it was going to be until we knew and you know, and the ups and downs and, you know, bracing myself for the for the emotion. And I look up and the license plate in front of me also was, like it said, like Michigan Wolverines. And and I was like, hmm, is it possible? Is it right? Right. That’s not good enough. Come on. Show me more. Um. And and I wish I knew how to explain it all. I think there are people who are better at explaining it all, but I think that there’s still this this, um, experience of, there are things that we just don’t know.  And that is magical in itself. I love talking about this. I get so excited.

Jean: Yeah. No, because it is exciting. Because it’s beyond our to do, you know? It really is… You know, I can only imagine… Well, it was like this movie, um, with Amy Adams  and she’s talking, she’s communicating with the extraterrestrial.

Alison: Oh, CONTACT.

Jean: Contact.

Amy : Oh. With Jodie Foster. Wait, was Amy Adams?

Alison: No. Not contact. Um, there was those big silver beans. Those big silver beans. They were so great.

Amy : Wait, it was Contact but I think it was Jodie Foster. No, unless it’s a different movie.

Alison: I’m gonna Look it up.

Jean: It, um. She’s a pretty. Very pretty Irish actress.

Alison: Um, but go on with your story.

Jean: So. Yeah. And so she’s now communicating with these, and she’s like, oh, my God… Like there’s intelligence- like, actually, it makes you go, wow- uh, there’s this power that I can actually use.

Alison: Arrival.

Amy : Oh, I never saw that.

Alison: It’s good. It’s really good.

Amy : Okay. Maybe tonight, I don’t know, I feel like I’m like, going to wander in circles or something tonight. I don’t know what to do with my….

Alison: So when you guys are talking about signs, when you say ask for signs. Like what? What happens if you ask for a sign and don’t? Do you ever not get it? Or do you get a sign explaining another path? Or like, do you understand my question?

Amy : Yeah. So what I usually do is and how I like when I’m in a meditation is typically when I will say like, can you? Well, now it’s actually I feel like I’m constantly in conversation in that way. But, um, sometimes I’m very specific, like in this situation, I was just I didn’t even ask for anything with my daughter, i just was sort of I was praying, frankly and trying to manifest. And I don’t think that’s, you know, on its own, i don’t think I could have manifested this had she not, um, been qualified for it. Right. But also I every day was like, I pray for what is for her highest and best good. Like, I don’t know that it’s that. But I trust that whatever is for her highest and best good will unfold in time. And then I’ll say something like, and please validate this for me in concrete ways. So, I mean, I think that there are, because again, I’m so concrete, I need something concrete. And I do think the more you cultivate the relationship, the stronger it gets, the more I think signs show up. So now, I feel like I’m getting signs all the time and like they feel like little winks and I’m just like, okay, got you. Like I’m on the right path. I’m headed in the right direction. Um, I don’t like, freak out if I don’t see things. And I think I’m sure that there are people who might be watching and saying, like, you’re just loony, and this is just like you’re creating things, and that’s why when I was talking to my friend and she was like, the signs lady thinks it’s not a sign.

Amy : I’m also very clear. Like I pay attention to that feeling inside of me. Yeah, that’s like just in that split second. You’re like, hmm. It’s that intuitive knowing that makes you feel like, okay, there’s something more to this, and it goes away very quickly. And that’s why I think a meditation practice or any sort of practice where you are more conscious, you don’t miss the signs. Like the license plate in front of me, I could have very easily not seen that. As soon as I looked up and it was in front of me, the car turned and was gone.  And so when we’re not, um, when we’re not really present and in tune with life, we can miss kind of the breadcrumbs. I call them the lily pads that, like, pop up for you, that show you. Yes, this is the right thing. And no, it’s not. I also think when it’s your Her own stuff often. Like if someone says, show me a sign that this guy is right for me, you’re going to maybe look for the things that show you that he’s right for you. It’s hard to get out of your head in that way. And that’s, again, not to keep bringing this back to meditation, but I feel like that is where a meditation practices can be so helpful is because you can detach a little bit from what you want the outcome to be and allow things to unfold, or be honest with yourself about what is and isn’t possible. And it’s still hard. I mean, even me with all these signs that I just shared was like, I don’t think this is going to happen.

Alison: Um, and that could have been protection, mental protection for you just in case.

Amy : Right. Right. Because I also feel like I live in a human… I mean, I feel like I live in a human world where Ah, I can’t just be like, oh, everything’s a sign. And this means that, and like, throw out my human experience with with the bathwater. But I also feel like these continue to be lessons even for me to trust, trust, trust, trust, trust. And that’s really hard.

Jean: Trusting yourselves. We so were were not raised that way. Trusting yourself. Trust your intuition.  And you know the clarity that brings is really is a priceless gift.

Jean: I was talking to a friend about clarity the other day. And you know I think when you’re someone like myself who is sensitive to other people, it’s sometimes hard to hone in on my own inner clarity. And back to your point, uh, it it is, you know, calming the mind down and going, no, this is true for me.

Amy : Mhm.

Jean: You know, and because the world is so full of different, different polls, different tidbits, different maybe it’s this, maybe it’s that, maybe it’s what Amy said, maybe it’s what your mother said, maybe it’s what you know, and and you’re just like, oh my God, stop the noise. And and what’s true for me?

Amy : Yeah. Right.

Amy : And we don’t tune in to that. So often we do not tune in to.

Jean: And I do think it’s important if you’re someone that is… I mean, we’re all sensitive, but if you’re more empathetic and empathic.

Jean: Mhm.

Jean: Good to have that kind of grounding. Grounding into the earth.

Alison: Right.

Jean: Grounding into your own core.

Alison: And I think what you said about outcomes is so important. Like don’t like, Because you’re right. If I want to look out and see, you know, ugliness, hate, fear, I’m going to see it. If I want to look at and see love and I’m going to see it. So I think it’s very interesting what you said, do not like once you remove yourself from the outcome, what is for the ultimate best and highest good that I may not even be aware of?  Do you know there were times with with with my son, that he wanted to school, he didn’t he didn’t get into a school and it was disappointing. And now when I look back, I think, thank God.   for various things that happened. I was like, oh my gosh.

Jean: You know, today’s lesson in A Course in Miracles is, “I don’t perceive my own best interests.”

Amy : Mhm.

Jean: Meaning like we think oh I want this to happen then I want that and then I want that… But we don’t, we’re… That’s such a limited… The universe has something much more grand.

Amy : And and it’s so hard. I think it’s so hard as a human to to trust that.

Jean: I think it would be nice to talk something that Alison and I talk about a lot lately is and I know it’s it’s it’s a buzzword now. It’s authenticity. Um, you know, and, and, um, especially in our age group, you know, you look at your identity as how you were in the past and you go, you know what? I, I did a lot of people pleasing or I did a lot of, you know, keeping the peace, which is, which has its own merit, which is fine, and then and, then you kind of look at your life and you go, where am I not congruent  with how I feel about something and saying yes to something versus hurting someone’s feelings. And, um, and I do think that’s part of the spiritual path.

Amy : Totally.

Jean: Is being congruent with your thought words and deeds. Easy, not really, but doable. It is doable. Um, so what are your thoughts about that?

Amy : Yeah, I think so. When you were talking, what came into my mind was this notion of, like, how you show up. Um, and I always thought about this very early in my clinical practice, actually, because there’s ,in therapy, they say you’re I mean, you’re the ethics are like, you have these very firm boundaries and that the client doesn’t really you know, you’re a blank slate. I mean, this is the therapy that I practice more traditional. You’re a blank slate, and the patient projects onto you who they think you are –  but there was something about that that didn’t feel authentic to me. It didn’t feel like a relationship. Right? And one of the things that always felt. So important was that my patients, if they saw me outside of therapy, they would never think this woman is not who she claims to be. Like she’s, you know, look like in the office she’s one way, but in life, she’s totally different. That feels not in alignment. Right. And I think of that often as as like a way of really framing, and it’s hard for people, it’s so difficult for people who have- i mean, we don’t know people’s early childhood experiences who they felt like they needed to, be throughout their lives to be loved, to be cared for, and so they became chameleons to other people. They I always referenced that in the movie Runaway Bride, remember, with Richard Gere and Julia Roberts, where he asks her what eggs she likes and she doesn’t know because she’s only always like the eggs that the person she was with liked. Yeah. And I think so often we have morphed ourselves for all kinds of reasons, usually based on early childhood, to protect ourselves from different threats, and that as we become middle aged adults, what are we still protecting ourselves from? And how do we step more into saying yes to ourselves and no to everything that doesn’t feel good? And recognizing that just because you set a boundary doesn’t mean that boundary….

Amy : I hear this all the time. It doesn’t– i’m not finishing sentences here— it doesn’t mean that boundary needs to be harsh, or I hear so much from women… I don’t like conflict and then I explore with them, what in your mind, what does conflict look like? Because people often have such a negative view of what conflict is, that it has to be confrontational, that it has to be like harsh and aggressive.  And I’m like, can you have conflict in a loving way? Can you have communication that you are expressing what you truly need in a way that doesn’t feel conflictual, that doesn’t feel hurtful, or it doesn’t mean the other person might not be hurt by what you say, but if you are saying it in a way that’s loving and that’s compassionate, you can’t control whether or not they’re hurt by that. That might be all their stuff that’s getting stirred up. And it’s so hard for people to stay in their authenticity because they they’re so worried about conflict, how the other person is going to feel, what they’re going to think, how they’re going to respond to them. And it’s not about that. I mean, that’s part of it. And there are relationships that need to be handled carefully. But also, what kind of a relationship are you in, including the relationship with yourself? If you can’t be true to who you are.

Jean: Right.

Alison: That’s beautiful. I hadn’t, I hadn’t really I hadn’t really thought about that. Like in the world, if someone sees you, they wanted to make sense. They don’t want you out in the world, like for a therapist or a doctor or, you know, they don’t want you out in the world, like, you know, rolling around on a hill, you know, you know, with, you know, cards in your hand. I mean, like, they wanted to make sense, right? And yet sometimes we don’t take the time to make how I am out in the world with myself make sense? Do you know, I never really I never really thought of it like that. That’s really great. You know, the the thing about being kind and being authentic are sometimes feel very disparate and there…. But you’re saying they don’t have to be.

Amy : Well, I think when you say like, be kind, I, I would I’m curious like what that means, right? Because I think that people have all different kinds of interpretations of this. The word like be kind or be nice. That doesn’t mean you don’t set a boundary or you don’t say no sometimes– I don’t think my kids would think I’m unkind, but they certainly hear no often. Right. Because it’s a boundary. And a boundary can be set very lovingly. Right?

Jean: I love, I love that the two can coexist. You know, if if you see your child doing something hurtful, you say, Come inside, come inside. You know, And it’s a loving thing to do. You see a child with matches and and yet it’s so interesting as you get older, again, to your point, Amy. Like, what are we protecting within ourselves where we feel we have to give away our authenticity?

Alison: But like right now, we’re living in a time, right? You guys, that is like, um, people feel this need to have, I think, very strong stance on what they think is “right”. I’m using air quotes.  They feel that they really need to say no, no, no, no-    so are you saying that then you do you can have those you can have that belief in what you think is right, but it really is just how you say it? Is that is that really what you’re saying?

Amy : Yeah, I think that’s part of it. But also how you’re listening to the other person, like, you know, I can I can look at a lot of what’s happening and say, I could see that side and I could see that side and I could see that side. Like, can you perspective take to be able to see other people’s sides? And it doesn’t mean that you have to cave on yours or believe that your side is wrong and the other side is right. But can you say, and this is where I think we’ve lost like all sense of humanness, we used to be able to say, oh, I could kind of see that…. I can see that perspective. I can understand where you might be coming from in that, I don’t agree with it, but I can understand where you’re coming from. Now we’ve just like, I don’t agree with what you’re saying, so it must be you, you’re the problem. And, and and I think you can you should still be very authentic with what you believe and how you believe it, but also willing and open to Open to listen to someone else’s perspective, to hear how they believe it. What do they think? And when we get so, I mean the fear–  I remember this during 2020 ,and I took a sabbatical this summer because I felt like I knew what was coming. And the fear that took hold in 2020. And again, I understand why it did. There were a lot of reasons for people to be scared.

Amy : But then it became like a soup that people just stirred and stirred and stirred and stirred in. And again, I’m very lucky. I don’t have to worry that I’m going to be deported. And so I recognize like, I don’t there’s I have I’m coming from a place of privilege in many ways. And I see so many people getting pulled into fear. And it’s like, if you do come from a place of privilege, then what are What are things you can do to help stabilize things so you don’t get pulled into that fear with everybody else because you’re no good, i’m no good in helping, if I’m pulled right into the fear of everything, because then I’m just swimming in this fear soup, right? And, you know, in 2020, as my role as a therapist, I couldn’t be in that fear because I couldn’t join– i can be empathic, but joining someone in their soup of whatever it could be fear, it could be anxiety, it could be anger, it’s not productive. And so it’s not staying, i do believe that our authentic selves are here– this is I don’t study A Course in Miracles, but A Course in Miracles is all about love and forgiveness, right? Like that, that we are all here to love one another. And we get so I mean, in, in a tweet or whatever they’re called now in an X thing, people just boom, they’re like sucked right in. Like it’s like, it’s like a vortex.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And how does spirituality keep you from that? Do you have any, any ideas on that? Like how does how does that help you?

Amy : Well I think it helps in a lot of ways because I can recognize like that a lot of what…. Well, I think spirituality and psychology, a lot of what’s happening, I feel like, is just people’s projections in many ways. Um, and so people like you, I can step back and watch and say, oh, well, that’s curious. Like what’s getting projected here and what’s getting projected here. And you know, what’s getting projected onto this person from that person and just kind of stepping back and watching. But I also think, one- I focus on the things that matter and that I can control and the difference I can make in this world. And it can it is it a sometimes a very like tiny  micro, very micro level of just feeling connection to other people and doing one small thing that could make a ripple that ripples out, and it might just be like buying someone a cup of coffee, or smiling at someone in the grocery store and saying hello, or calling a friend and checking in on them just to say hi, how are you? I’ve missed talking to you– like all of those things are spiritual.

Jean: Yeah, right.

Amy : It doesn’t have to be this grand. Like I’m sitting in prayer and meditation for hours a day. Connection with another human being is probably the most powerful spiritual experience you can have. I mean, the three of us love talking.

Jean: That’s so well said.

Alison: Yeah,

Jean: my husband used to say, oh, Jeannie, I’m not spiritual. I’m not. That’s you. And I’d say, Alex, you are so spiritual. You’re always connecting, bringing people together. You know, it just looks cloaked. It’s it’s like because I go to a spiritual center, so it just looks obvious because the of the word… But what your platform is– it’s exactly what you said when we’re unified and we can have different feelings, preferences, and yet we don’t separate ourselves from someone. Um, I love that you said that… Here’s a saying that I heard on a podcast, when you’re feeling, um, your your thoughts are different than someone else’s, you can just say, oh, “I think differently about that.”

Jean: I think differently about.  You know, and stay curious.

Amy : Right. And then a great thing for someone to say back is,  tell me more about how you think about it?

Alison: Yeah. Right.

Amy : Yeah. I mean, I started following watching the other side. I’m not even, i don’t even know what the other side is anymore because every side feels like another side. But but just because I was, like, curious, like, what are what are both sides saying? Like, I can’t live in the echo chamber of what I think is right because, i don’t I want to hear, I want to understand, and there’s nothing, again, more spiritual than sitting down and maybe understanding where someone else is coming from. You don’t know their story, right? And so to hear someone’s story, to witness someone’s story, to listen to them again, one of the most spiritual things you can do is be in connection with another person. Talk about something that fills your heart up. I mean, what fills your heart up more than that? I’m thinking about this retreat I hosted in November and it was like the most, it was exhausting because I don’t hold space for that many people at once. But it and it was a totally different experience for me. I’m not, i mean, I hold space for 20 people a week, but it’s one on one.  And to hold it in like a big space was a completely different experience. But oh my gosh, did my heart feel full? Like never felt fuller. And that is such a spiritual experience. Like all of these little moments, the moment that you we had I had before I got on with you today, like that was the most spiritual experience. It was pure, elated joy. Like I said when we started, I want to bottle it up because we have those moments in life and they’re so fleeting. And when we’re not conscious and we’re not connected, it’s like it didn’t even happen. Even when we are. It’s like it didn’t even happen. But when we’re not, we can’t experience like, my sister is so upset with us that we didn’t videotape it. She’s like videotape. I’m really dating myself here that we didn’t record exactly. We didn’t take out our camcorder, um, that we didn’t record the opening of this thing, but it was like we were, so in the moment of it all, it was just Joy!

Alison:  It’s amazing.

Jean: Well, Amy, we’ve come full circle and, uh, ending with the joy of your beautiful family, having this joyful experience, being in the moment. Um, I can’t thank you enough for your time, your wisdom, um, your grace, that you, you so generously give to us and to all your viewers.

Alison: Yeah. Thank you. We really love.  You so much.

Amy : I love you guys, too. I’ll do this any time. I love talking to you. And I feel like every time.

Alison: Wow. We caught her on a big day, huh?

Jean: We did. I remember those those days for Matthew and Emily. Finding out where they were going to go to college. And… Yeah, but this had a real significance for her and her husband…

Alison: Right – Because no one went back to my alma mater or anything of my kids.

Jean: Same. Same with me.

Alison: But it was, um, just seeing that joy, and we were just saying, you know, our energy was different being here. And yet, you know, we were able to really connect. I thought, she’s just wonderful.

Jean: She is she is doing such good work in the world. And she’s the perfect bridge for the human mind, the human experience and bringing in spirituality. I, I just am so grateful that we found her. And and she’s she’s our friend. Yeah.

Alison: And listen to her podcast. She’s fantastic.

Jean: Oh my God. She has interviewed so many amazing people. So, um, however you get to listen to Amy just do it. It’s she’s she’s such a gift.

Alison: And again, um, love and and…

Jean: Love and prayers… Knowing that everyone is surrounded by love. Yes. Even when it doesn’t look that way.

Alison: That’s right. And that’s it. Thanks.