Podcast Episode 53: Eric Zimmer

Jean : Alrighty. Here we go.

Alison : Here we are. Take three. Three’s the charm. We’re in a beautiful new place today. Recording this intro.

Jean : It’s called my closet.

Alison : Yeah. It is. It’s lovely. It’s a beautiful closet. And, um, we thought we’d change it up because today we’re talking about change with, uh, Eric Zimmer. Right.

Jean : Right. Eric Zimmer has a wonderful podcast called The One You Feed. And I can’t applaud him enough for doing this work and and offering so many wonderful people that he talks to on his platform.

Alison : And I, I, I had listened to his podcast and I look at his Ted talk and he is just this regular man, a regular guy, right? That, uh, took his life changes and as you say, was vulnerable with them and really is making a difference and helping people, um, take steps to be the self that they want to be.

Jean : Yeah. And he recognizes that it all happens in your mind and changing behavior patterns and and it’s not easy. It’s it’s not an overnight solution. And we want it to be.

Alison : That’s right. That’s right. I just want a pamphlet. That I could be like, oh, I did that. Done. And I wake up like… But it’s not like that, huh?

Jean : No, no. Obviously not. And, uh, so he’s amazing.

Alison : And we hope you enjoy this.

Jean : I was so happy when he said yes to being on our show.

Alison : Yes. You’re going to really enjoy him. Here he is.

Eric: Hi. It’s nice to meet you both.

Jean : So great to meet you. My name is Jean

Alison : And I’m Alison.

Eric: Hello, Jean. Hello, Alison.

Alison : Hello. We’re so happy that you’re joining us. We love your podcast. And, um, we have delved into Eric Zimmer for the past two weeks. You are…

Eric: Oh, goodness.

Alison : Yes. We have. And it’s, you’re very interesting, and we can’t wait to talk.

Eric: Oh, well. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate you having me. And for, uh, learning a little bit about me. That’s great. That’s excellent.

Alison : So can we just begin just a little bit with your past, because it’s so informative as to where you are today. Could you tell our listeners just a little bit about, uh, what you’ve what you’ve been through?

Eric: Sure. I think the, um, you know, the the salient point is the my addiction recovery, uh, or at least that’s the early salient point, right? By the by the time I was 24, I was a homeless heroin addict. I was looking at going to jail for a long, long time. I had hepatitis C. I weighed about 110, 105 pounds. So I was in really bad shape. And so, um, and I fortunately,  thankfully, I got sober at the age of 25 and, um, I stayed sober about eight years, and I went back out and I drank some, but I’ve been back another 16 years. So really, the vast amount of my adult life I’ve been fortunate enough to be in recovery, which, uh, has a lot of benefits, uh, to it. And, and I’m grateful in many ways that things got as bad as they did as quickly as they did, because it it allowed me to, uh, get to recovery, I think faster, which is, which is a positive.

Jean : Yeah. I mean, I think that’s the whole, uh, the point is, is to help dig yourself out so that you can start living a life that you’re really proud about, or can be productive and and meaningful. So, um, Eric, what when you were in in the depths of your addiction, what what helped you start elevating yourself out– was did you read a book? Were you in AA? What? Like where where were you and what helped you really get get that momentum going?

Eric: Yeah, I ultimately it was a combination of going into a treatment center and then yes, attending AA. There were lots of half hearted attempts before that, which I think are all valuable. Um, in that you sort of start to learn what works, what doesn’t work. I think we have this vision that there’s this big turning point moment with people, and there is. But that moment is preceded by lots of other moments that I think are really important, and obviously followed by lots of other moments which are equally important. But yes, for me it was, um, with the pending jail sentences and, uh, being homeless and a few other things. I went into a detox center and, um, they encouraged me to seek further treatment. I originally said no, and then, um, I had a moment of clarity where I thought, okay, yes, I better do this or I’m going to die. And, uh, and so I went into long term treatment, which set the ground for me then to once I got out to, to work on, um, staying sober out in the world, uh, through the help of 12 step programs.

Alison : It’s so interesting because we’re both parents, and I think you’re a parent.

Eric: Yeah.

Alison : And so somebody knew you were going on this path. Uh, your your parents, maybe, or family members or friends. And, you know, you hear that thing where they say, well, they’ve got to hit their low. Let them, let them struggle. What do you what do you make of that now as a parent yourself. Like if, if, if we knew someone like, what do you do with that. I’m not sure? do you understand my question?

Eric: Yeah… I understand the question completely. And it’s something I’ve thought a lot about having been the person in recovery, being a parent and having talked to hundreds of families at this point where I get asked by people in real despair, what do I do? Um, the thinking around this is changing. I mean, addiction is a lot of things are changing in the way that we think about addiction. But one of them is this whole tough love movement, got a lot of traction in the 80s and 90s early 2000. And it’s that like, you know, they’ve got to hit their bottom. You’ve got to cut them off. You’ve and and I think that what we’re what we’re starting to learn more now is you certainly don’t want to enable an addict. Right. And there are ways in which you you can be enabling somebody in ways that don’t make that that are not, do not make any sense. But there’s no reason that you have to withdraw your love and your care from these, from the people in your life that are addicts. And often that love and care is important. We know that trying to to berate somebody often into sobriety doesn’t work. Um, there is some truth to the idea that you have to hit i don’t like that phrase hit bottom, i would say there is some truth to the fact that the addict has to have some degree of degree of consequence, some degree of things not going well in their life, or they’re not going to give up this thing that they love and is really important to them.

Eric: And so we don’t want to stand in the way of the people we love getting those consequences that naturally come. Um, but this idea of rock bottom doesn’t make sense because, my bottom is very different than somebody else’s bottom. And there are people who… And then there are people who never hit rock bottom, and we see them die from this, right? Their rock bottom, you know, to us, over and over, we’d be like, oh my God, that’s the worst thing… And they just keep going, right? And so ultimately, we addiction is a mystery to a large degree. What causes some people to get sober and others not. We know some things, but but there’s an element of mystery in it. And so I think as as people who love people who are addicts, we we want to try and relate to them from a place of, love and understanding as well, but also reality. You know, I went through something where my best friend, uh, who is the editor of our podcast and started the podcast with me, uh, descended deep back into his cocaine addiction while we were doing the podcast together.

Eric: And it was a really challenging time for me, because what’s the right way to relate to someone like that? Right? The people in his life that are closest to him, his, his wife are, you know, they’re telling him all the time how terrible what he’s doing is. He knows on some level. And so I’m trying to find a way to relate to him so that we are our friendship is still our friendship, and a way in which I can say, I’m really worried about you. I’m concerned about you, but not make that the only thing that we talk about. Because if I do, he’s not going to want to talk to me anymore. Right.  He’s going to avoid me because I’m just going to be another constant thing. And so balancing that I think is really challenging and really tricky. So I don’t think there are easy answers, but I think the old this the long answer, the old tough love approach has been modified. And there are there are variations in there, i think for people, but ultimately there’s only so much that anybody can do that’s going to either cause somebody to keep using or stop them from using. It’s the person who’s the addict is the one who’s going to have to figure it out.

Jean : Yeah. I think you’re so right. This is addiction, is it is really challenging. It’s just not a one stop. Read this book. You’ll feel better. Take these classes. You’ll you know you’ll you’ll find help it it is something very deep in the human psyche. And I really have to applaud you. And I, you know, that you’re so vulnerable with your own life and share being of such service to humanity. All your guest speakers are phenomenal, and you’re just really elevating the people. Even if you listen to one little one of your podcasts they are wonderful, Eric.

Eric: Thank you.

Jean : I love the name of your podcast, The One You Feed. Can you share with our listeners what what that wonderful teaching parable is, and why did you choose that parable as the name of your podcast.

Eric: You know, in retrospect, naming a podcast that’s, uh, about, you know, um, the best ways to, to live skillfully calling it calling it the one you feed- makes sense once you know the parable, but when you don’t, people are like, what is it, a cooking show? I’m like, no, not a not a cooking show. Um, it’s based on an old parable where, um, you know, there’s a grandparent talking to their grandchild, and they say, in life we all have two wolves inside of us. Um, ones that are at battle ones. A good wolf represents things like kindness, bravery and love. The other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. The grandchild stops, thinks about it for a second, and asks the grandparent, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed? So that’s the title of the podcast, because it’s based on that parable. You know, as to why I chose it, I, I mean, I know that that parable from early on in my addiction made a lot of sense to me, like the first time I heard it. I think that’s what makes it a great parable, as soon as you hear it, you get it- right. Oh, I have choices. And those choices matter. So it’s very straightforward. Um, I don’t know why…. I just got the got the idea one day, like I could start a podcast and I could call it that, and I could ask people that question, what it means to them, and that would be a place to start. And ten years later, I still keep doing the same thing.

Alison : It’s great.

Jean : It’s so great. And I think it’s so true. I think there’s this wisdom, um, and psychological benefit to, to really focus on what, what am I giving my attention and my, my intention and my attention to?

Eric: Yes. Yes, absolutely.

Jean : And that alone is a lifetime.

Alison : Journey.

Jean : Work.

Alison : That’s right.

Eric: Yes, 100%. 100%. Yeah. If you worked with only those two ideas the rest of your life. What? What matters to me? What’s my intention? And what am I paying attention to that? That is a teaching and work of a lifetime. You’re absolutely right.

Alison : We’ve been talking a lot about how you are working in two worlds. You’re a behavior coach and also talk and have a lot of guests that deal with spirituality and how actually they they are very synergistic. And yet a lot of a lot of your discussion is about taking action, taking action. Where does spirituality, which in some people’s mind I think is like every—- I’m not going to take an action– everything’s okay. I’m going to be a little rock in a river and let it, you know…. Can you tell us where that intersects for you?

Eric: Well, it’s a good question. I think spirituality is a term. I used to use that term a lot more than I use it now. And the reason that I don’t use it so much now is because it’s a term that means almost nothing. Um, because so many different people could interpret it so differently. Right. Some people could think spirituality is what you just said. Other people would think spirituality is about serving Jesus. Other people would think that spirit. Right. It’s a term that that that doesn’t mean a lot. What I do think is that either taking action or accepting everything the way it is, which are sort of two, two sort of different things are mediated by that, that old chestnut, the Serenity Prayer. Right, which says, you know, um, you know, give me the courage, give me the courage to change the things I can, you know, let me accept the things I can’t. And then there’s that wisdom to know the difference. And to me, that that is the that is the key piece. And what I think a lot of spirituality done correctly points towards is finding that wisdom, that wisdom to know, okay, this is a situation that I can change and should change, or this is a situation that I should really just let be. Um, and that seems like you say that little, little prayer and it seems easy, but that wisdom is one of the the most elusive things, I think, as humans, for us to find.

Alison : Do you think you’ve gained that wisdom?

Eric: Oh, um, sure, to some degree. But but, but I encounter things in my life where I have to think about. Yeah, okay. Right. What do I do here? You know, should I accept this? Should I change this? Um. So I don’t think it’s ever like you, i don’t think it’s, we get wisdom, and then every decision the rest of our lives is easy or makes sense. I think the the nature of life is it keeps throwing different things at you that you haven’t experienced before. And, Um, and part of wisdom is knowing is, is knowing that and, um, being humble enough to know that you don’t know.

Alison : I think that’s so important for our listeners to hear, because so many times our listeners say, you have the most together, guests, everyone, so together. And so we always try to ask them, like, do you get frustrated when you don’t find a parking space? Do you get angry? Do things still come up for you? And I think we like to hear that you’re still in the throes of the world.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we’re all still human. Yeah. You know, and and I’ve talked to, um, I don’t know how many guests we’ve had at this point. Over 600. Somewhere between 600 and 700, uh, which astounds me to even say out loud. But I was asked by somebody recently what was one of the most surprising things about the show. And one of the things that was surprising to me was to recognize that even these people who have a great amount of wisdom and write books that you read and you’re like, oh my God, they’re so wise. Wow, that’s so powerful. Like, their life is still hard sometimes. Yeah, their life is still hard. And even people who claim some degree of spiritual enlightenment will tell you that, like if they if they, you know, kick their toe against a rock, it hurts, right? Like it still hurts. You know, if they get if they get cancer, they’re still afraid. Now are are they as afraid as they might have been otherwise? And I think that- I have joked sometimes that if you boiled everything I had to teach and I’ve learned down, it would be about, how do I not make this situation worse? Which sounds like on one level like, well, that’s not very helpful, but it surely is, because we as humans are capable of making everything worse… Either through the way we act or the way we think about and handle difficulty. And so a lot of times there’s this idea of how can I, how can I let whatever is difficult in my life be difficult, without making it worse by all the things that I think should be? And one of the biggest ones is thinking, it shouldn’t be hard for me. Yeah. You know, it shouldn’t be hard for me anymore. I know better. I know better, you know?  and that just causes us to suffer more.

Alison : Yeah, right. Because we’re telling ourselves we’re a failure before we begin.

Eric: Right, right. Yeah. And I think that that is one of the things that I work to do on the show a lot, is to normalize whatever people are experiencing. It’s one of the things I like about the parable, actually, the one that that the show is based on because, it it says everybody has these two wolves inside of them that are at battle, and it makes it sound like it’s even kind of a close battle. Right? And I think that normalizes that like, of course you have moments where you get angry when you don’t get a parking spot. And of course, you have moments where you think, I hate that person because they did something that you don’t agree with. And of course, you have days where you feel lousy and days that you doubt yourself and like that’s being human. And to the extent that we can internalize and and let that be —right and that’s a place where if you want to talk about acceptance, I think one one place that acceptance is really, really valuable all the time is in at least accepting what our internal world is like. We may then want to go on and change it, but at least to be able to say, I’m feeling x, Y, or Z And that’s okay.

Jean : Right. And and that takes time, Eric… I mean, like, in our world, it’s so busy, like to really sit and and feel. What’s it like to feel like Allison? What’s it like to feel like Eric or myself? You know, like that that takes a sort of a consciousness where you can just sit and kind of just be and leaning into that, is that why you you champion meditation on your website? You you offer a great, um, you offer suggestions as why we don’t meditate, why we give it up. And I love all of your tips. It’s wonderful. Um,  let’s talk about meditation. Do you find that meditation has helped you personally tap into your inner world?

Eric: Yes, I think it certainly has. I, I would say that I have um, I think meditation is really valuable for me. Um, and I know it’s been valuable for many people. I have started to to realize, though, that it’s not for everyone, and it doesn’t need to be for everyone. Right. I think that, uh, if you’d asked me five years ago, I probably would have said, well, everybody should do it. It’d be good. You know, it’d help everybody. And I don’t know if that’s that’s the case. I do think, though, that what you’re pointing to is some amount of stillness and space is important. How you get that can be very different. You may get it by cooking dinner right and paying close attention to what you’re doing. You might get it walking in the woods. You might get it, um, by playing the guitar. I mean, there’s there’s different ways that I think we can access that space in stillness. And I don’t and I don’t think sitting down and meditating is the is the thing for everyone. But for me, it’s certainly been helpful. And the main thing that I would say that I think meditation has given me is there’s that great Viktor Frankl quote where he says, “between stimulus and response, there is a space”, and in that space lie all our human freedoms.  And that’s what I think meditation does, is it increases that space a little bit for me. It makes me more able to have a stimulus, feel a response, start to automatically rise up and then say, hang on, okay, I see what I see, what the what response is coming up inside of me. I’m not going to say that that response is wrong or that I’m it’s bad to have it, but I, I can pause and say, is that the reaction that I want to have? Is there a different way, perhaps, for me to think about this? Right. And I think you’re right that we do need space because what what I think one of the other real pillars of wisdom is being able to recognize that we are constantly creating meaning out of what happens to us. Right? And we are making the meaning. It’s not inherent in the things that happen. It is in that we create it. And so being able to stop and pause and go, what am I making this mean? Right. And and is that what else might it mean?

Jean : Yes.

Eric: And so yes, some degree of some space and stillness, I think, makes it more likely that we are going to be able to pause when the stimulus hits, pause and say, okay, what is the response I want to have?

Alison : Well, that’s great, and I’m so glad you said meditation isn’t for everybody because many people we know say, you know, I tried, I can’t and I just I keep saying that’s okay, you know, take a walk. You know, you know, um, I love that you’re saying the, the thing about, um, response and taking a pause and giving things meaning and the stories we tell ourselves. When, when when I was looking at your Ted talk, uh, you were talking about the game of risk and how to begin something and your idea of small steps, which is so fantastic. Do you think what you just said about stopping and telling ourselves what things mean? Do you also think that applies to your own thinking? Like, oh, I can’t even make my bed. I’m a loser. You’re saying take a break. You say, I can’t even make my bed. Take a break and not go right to the loser part?

Eric: Right. That that’s the the fact that if we examine that statement, I can’t make my bed. Thus I’m a loser. There’s a bunch of assumptions in there, right? The first is even the word. I can’t make my bed. Well, we don’t know that. We just know that right now you’re not making your bed. Right.. So even that first jump to I can’t is a is a creation of meaning. And then the second one is I’m a loser. There are lots of people who don’t make their beds who are absolutely incredible people. Right. Right. There’s a there’s a ton of them. Right? If we did a poll, we’d find a lot of people who’d say, I don’t make my bed, but we’d be like, God, they got their stuff together, right? So this idea that since I can’t make my bed, I’m a loser. Yeah, I’m creating that meaning.

Alison : Right

Eric: It may simply be that you just don’t care about a made bed. Now, some some guy on the internet is telling you you need to make your bed, because that shows you’re disciplined and you’ve got your stuff together. Maybe. Maybe not. Because you may not care about making your bed, right. So there’s a whole lot of stuff that even in a simple thing like that goes but but to the point of small steps. Yes. I think that it makes sense to us the way that we have to take small steps, like if most of us would understand if I’m going to run a marathon, I’m not going to walk out the door and run 26 miles. I’m going to I’m going to walk out the door and run a mile today, and then I’m going to have a clear training program, and I’m going to build up over time, and eventually I might get there. However, when it comes to our thinking, I think that we believe we’re going to read something in a book or hear something on a podcast, and 30 years of ingrained thinking habits are going to melt away like that. And they and they just don’t. I wish they did. The good news is, yes, we can retrain the way we view and think about the world. The bad news is it happens by repetition. It happens again and again. It happens by recognizing, oh, there’s that voice telling me I’m a loser again. What is it that the wisest, truest part of me wants to say to that voice?

Alison : Right.

Eric: And then get ready to do it about 50,000 times. right. Because it’s just going to keep coming up. Right. There are certain thought patterns that go on in my mind that like, to this day, I don’t know how to turn them off. Right. Like, I don’t know how to just flip the off switch so that they never arise. Mm. But now I more or less can hear them and see them and be like, oh yeah, okay, there’s that again. You know, there’s this, uh, this, uh, there’s this guy, he’s a founder of Acceptance Commitment Therapy. And I don’t know if he came up with this analogy, but I love the analogy. And he talks about our thoughts sometimes being like the radio that’s in your neighbor’s house.

Alison : Mm mm.

Alison : Meaning you, it may be going on in the background and you can’t go turn it off.

Alison : Yeah. Yeah.

Eric: But you also don’t have to listen to it all the time either. Right. You can be like, all right, that’s kind of bothering me. I wish it wasn’t there. You know, if I could turn it off, I would, but I can’t. So…. And and I think that our thoughts are, are that way. So it’s a matter of being clear about what thoughts we want to have. We can’t control what thoughts we have. They just show up. I mean, that’s one of the great things that that even trying meditation will teach you is like, I am not the I’m not making these things happen. I’m actively trying to make them not happen. And they keep coming. Right. So we there’s no turning them off.. But I do think we can say that thought when it comes up is one that I want to cultivate. And that thought when it comes up, is one that I want to minimize. But like I said, it’s it is going to take a lot of reps, particularly by the time you get to be anywhere near like our age. Right. You’ve been thinking some of these things for a long time. Now, maybe if somebody’s five, they’ve got a, you know, it’s a whole lot easier to change thought patterns. But when you’re almost 55 like me, some of these things are going to be harder to change. But I do I do deeply believe we can.

Jean : I do too. I mean, it reminds me, did Eric, have you seen the movie? It’s a while ago called, A Beautiful Mind.

Eric: I saw it a long time ago. Yes.

Jean : And what you just said reminds me of the the major character. I think he deals with schizophrenia or some some form of mental challenge. And, you know, he sees the illusion, but he just knows, like he’s trained his mind enough to go. No, I’m, I’m I’m not engaging. I’m not engaging…and to your podcast, I’m not going to feed that.

Eric: Yeah, it’s really hard. It’s really hard to because there is just some sense that if we think it, it’s true. Like we just sort of feel that way. But that’s absolutely not the case. Just because you think it, you know, and oftentimes the stronger that you feel about it is for me is even more of a sign, the more convinced I am of something a certain way is a and the more emotional energy that’s behind it is oftentimes a sign for me, like, okay, hang on. Let’s examine this a little bit more closely. That doesn’t mean that every strong feeling I have is wrong. That’s not what I’m saying at all. But but it is a sign to me because those are the ones we don’t question. Those are the ones that we go, well, I’m absolutely I’m not making this mean anything. This is what it means.

Alison : Yeah.

Eric: I’m convinced this is what it means. That for me, I’ve learned over the years to treat it as a little bit of a red flag, like, okay, hang on, why do you feel so strongly about that? Maybe, maybe you examine it and go, okay, I feel so strongly because x, Y, and z… It lines up with my core values, it all makes sense, but we might find also that, um, it’s a habitual pattern. It’s it’s coming up out of, uh, a past experience or a trauma. Right. And it’s why I am always really cautious. People talk a lot about intuition. Just trust your gut. And I think there’s some wisdom in that. But I think that our gut can also lead us very astray. Right. Because particularly if you’re somebody who is like people who’ve suffered trauma, whether big trauma, little trauma, right… You might your gut might be saying you’re in great danger right this moment, when you’re sitting in a completely safe room. It feels really, really true. But it’s not.

Alison : Right.

Eric: Right. And so, you know, intuition is, I think, is a source of information, but I don’t think it’s the only source. I think the longer that we are on a journey of becoming conscious about about the things that are unconscious, the more we can trust our intuition. But, you know, uh, you know, there was a lot of years that I was convinced if I didn’t take some sort of drug or drink, I was going to die, right? That that that was a deeply held feeling and it was a completely wrong one.

Alison : That’s that’s so beautiful. Because that is so that is so true. And I love that you even said the I can’t and the I can’t make a bed. That’s a story that can’t– and that’s but it comes out so effortlessly. Do you know, that you don’t think it’s a story?

Eric: Yes.

Alison : My mind is like, well, there it is. Do you know– if someone’s listening to this, and I’m sure there are people right now listening and they are like, I want to, i’m on board. What, what what would you counsel them to do first besides sign up for your class mayb? is there something they could do? Is there something that they could do privately to begin?

Eric: Well, I think the question would be to begin to do what? Right. So so, you know, I think that the in general, with everything that we’re talking about and any sort of change that you want to make, the step that we can start to take is one of becoming aware, right, of simply becoming more aware of what am I thinking and what am I feeling. And it seems like that’s very obvious, but it’s a different kind of awareness. And I and I’ve never known how to articulate this thing, but I think that that, that when I say it, you’ll go, yeah, that’s the case, that we can be completely lost in a thought pattern and yet also not know it at the same time. Yeah, it’s a very strange thing. It’s like our brain is, is captured. So it for me it’s about awareness. It’s about being able to sort of step up a level and go, and go, okay, what’s going on in here? And that awareness is going to facilitate any kind of change that we want to make. Because ultimately there are there are strategies for change that I, I like to refer to as structural meaning, i’ve got a good plan. I know what you know, i know how to remember to do it. I know what triggers to watch out for. I know what to what I’m going to do when I don’t do it. I’m I’ve set up my environment to be successful. I’ve got people on my side who are going to encourage me. There’s all these structural things that behavior change science has taught us that we can do in order to make a change, and we really want to do all of those things. They’re very important. But there is also a there is the moment of choice where we’re faced with a choice. And what we need to be able to do is to to see that moment and look at what am I thinking and feeling in this moment, particularly if I make the wrong choice, right? So let’s just say I’m like, okay, I’m done eating chocolate chip cookies after dinner.

Jean : Mhm.

Eric: So okay. I you know, a wise change effort would say things like, well get all the cookies out of the house, make sure you don’t have any cookies. And you know what, find a friend who wants to quit cookies also. And you do all that right. And then one night, for some reason, one of the kids comes home and lays a chocolate chip cookie on the counter. Here we are. It’s the moment, right? And if you eat the cookie, despite not wanting to, what’s useful is to go back and say, all right, what, what went on inside me at that moment? You know, what was I thinking or feeling? And then saying, okay, well, next time I’m faced with that choice, what might I say to myself differently? But in order to do any of that, you have to be aware. You have to have the capacity to be aware of what you’re thinking and feeling in a particular moment. And that awareness is also about creating that space, right? Because what you need in that moment is the space. There’s a cookie. I really want the cookie. Hang on. You know, do I, do I, you know, do I really.. Do I really want the cookie? Right. You know, what do I want now versus what do I want most kind of thing? So I would say without unless you were to ask me, like if somebody wanted to make X change, if you’re just talking about change in general, I would say start by learning to identify more clearly and with more granularity what you’re thinking and feeling.

Alison : Wow. Yeah. I mean, I’ve dealt with that. I’ve dealt with that damn cookie on that counter.

Eric: Everybody has.

Alison : And, you know, I’ve been there staring at those chocolate chips in the oven. And sometimes I feel honestly like I can’t, i have no control. Yeah, sometimes I think, well, what the heck? It’s one like how often is a kid going to bring this home? I may never have enough. And, and and you’re right, i’m stuck in a thought pattern that I’m not even aware of.

Eric:  And knowing what those are right is can be really helpful. We’ve got a, um. Uh, we haven’t released it yet. I don’t know when you will release this show, but we’re about to release a new little free thing that people can get that I call the the six Saboteurs of self Control. And it’s it’s- what are some of the common things that happen at that moment of choice that get in our way? Now, the most important thing that any behavior change scientist will tell you is you want to rely on self control as little as possible, right? If we were to get all the behavior change scientists, leading behavior change scientists in the world put them in a them in a room and force them to agree on something that would probably be what they would agree on. Don’t, don’t rely on self control too much. It doesn’t work very well, which is all the structural stuff I said, right? All the things that you can do, but you’re going to have to rely on it to some degree. And I’ve noticed there are some common patterns that we get into in those moments. So one that you just did was the you know, it doesn’t really matter.

Alison : Yeah,

Eric: And the truth is it might not. That one cookie. Right. And this is where things get tricky. Because having a cookie every now and then is not that bad of a thing, in the grand scheme of things. Um, but it’s that one is I sort of refer to as the insignificance trap, which means that we think that it doesn’t, it’s not going to matter. Right? Either on on the on the positive or the negative. Right. More often it’s like, I should exercise this morning, but it doesn’t really, you know, it doesn’t really matter. And again, an isolated event doesn’t matter. But what you do again and again and again does matter. And and so it’s, it’s a it’s a tricky balance. But but learning like you said now you know okay. You know what the last three times that I’ve, you know made the choice I didn’t want to make the thought pattern I had was, ah, who cares, it’s just a cookie, right? Okay, well, now you know, that’s your pattern. So what do you want to say to yourself instead? Right. It might be something like, you’re right, one cookie doesn’t matter. However, me keeping the promise that I made to myself does matter.

Alison : Oh, yeah. That’s great.

Eric: That matters. That’s important. Or you know what I keep saying? One cookie doesn’t matter, but one cookie never is one cookie. It ends up being four cookies. Or once I eat it that night, then it’s easier for me to say the same thing the next night and the next night and the next night. And so you start to realize, okay, that, you know, it’s it’s the classic addict, right? One more… Which is, is a lie. And so anybody who has a true addiction has to eventually see through that. They have to be able to see through the fact that it’s not just one more. It’s never one more, right. Now Again, cookie may or may not be that way, but but what I’m pointing to in general is your awareness allows you to see that what you say to yourself, and then you can decide, okay, well, what do I want to say to myself instead?

Alison : I love the idea of a promise to yourself.  It’s not about the cookie.

Jean : And it all stems from within ourselves. How, what we think of ourselves.

Eric: Uh, yeah. I think that’s one of the biggest reasons that learning how to change behavior is important. It’s obviously important in that it allows us to make better choices around, um, you know, what we eat and how we sleep and whether we exercise and all these different things which are all important. But if we constantly keep saying we’re going to do something and then we don’t do it, it really erodes our sense of belief in ourselves. And that’s the biggest cost, right? That’s the that’s the really big cost is okay, because now I can’t trust myself when I say I’m going to do X, Y or Z and that that’s a big deal.

Alison : That’s very sad. It’s it almost brings tears to my eyes.   can you regain that?

Eric: Absolutely.

Alison : Okay.

Eric: Absolutely. I mean, an addict, an addict is a nice, um, sort of extreme example of these things, right? So as an addict, yeah, that’s I mean, one of the biggest things is you, you you– absolutely….

Eric: Somebody asked me earlier what did addiction do to your identity? And I said, it completely took every identity that wasn’t I’m an addict. That was it. Right? That was all that was left was, this is who I am. And that’s not a very good feeling, you know? And and so no sense of faith in myself or in my ability to change at all. And now I’ve been, you know, sober 16 years around this time. So, yeah, we can absolutely get it back. We can absolutely get it Get it back.

Alison : You Must be so proud of yourself?

Eric: I mean, when I reflect upon it. Yes. And at a certain point, right, we these things become normal, right? And yes- getting over an addiction is is something to feel really good about. And, um, you know, I face the same day to day challenges that anybody else does at this point, right. And um, and it’s not it’s not hard anymore. That’s one of the messages of hope I think, about addiction is that, it’s not people– it makes it sound like it’s a forever fight. And on one hand, it is, in that, like, I really should never take a drug again, but I don’t day to day struggle. I don’t have any, I have no I’ve told this story a couple times, um, because I think it speaks to how deeply we can change, um, a Um, a few years ago, my mother, uh, my mother has continued to have falls and chronic pain. And she had been in the hospital again. She was out of the hospital, and I was picking up her medicine. And I had been doing it for about a month when I realized one day that I was going to the pharmacy. I was picking up opioids, and I was delivering them to my mother. And not only had I not really even thought like that, not only had I not been tempted, I hadn’t even thought about it. Yeah. At one point in my life, I probably would have robbed you at gunpoint for that.

Alison : Right

Eric:  and I say that only because I think it points to the hope of we can change really dramatically. That took time to get to a place where that’s my relationship to that thing. But it is possible. And so when you say like can we get that faith back in ourselves, I believe completely, yes we can. I mean, it’s one of the of the main things that that I try and help people to do is to, is to to bridge that gap between what they know they should do and what they’re actually able to do. Um, and, and in order to bridge that gap, there is some, you know –  A: we have to have some sort of realistic expectations of ourselves. Right? And then we need to know the strategies and approaches that, that make it more likely that we’ll change. And there are strategies and approaches. So when I used to coach people, I would always say like what we need to think about you doing or not doing whatever this thing is, as a puzzle. Because there is a solution, we don’t know what it is today. We may have to put a bunch of pieces in places that they don’t fit and go, oh, that didn’t work. And oh, now we need to do this and we. All right, let’s try that. And that didn’t work. But this but I do believe that those things are puzzles and puzzles and they can be figured out. And that is really important because it gets us from where we started– it gets me out of,  I can’t make my bed and i’m a loser to– i have not yet figured out how to make my bed. Huh? How do I do that? If it if it turns out that it’s important to me. If it turns out that it’s important to me, it’s not– i can’t. It’s not– i’m a loser. It’s simply– i haven’t figured this out yet.

Alison : I love that because that’s really filled with hope.

Eric: Yes. Yes. 100%.

Jean : Yeah. And everything you’re sharing is is very hopeful. Yeah. There, there. Um, with all the the great communications you’re having with wonderful guests, with your your own innate wisdom… Eric, you’re really giving hope to to really, um, making us making humanity be as strong and as.

Alison : Yeah.

Jean : As great as possible.

Alison : You’re a great guy.

Eric: Well thank you, thank you.

Alison :  We just have two quick ending questions. The name of our podcast is insidewink. Yeah. We ask our guests what they think insidewink might mean to them?

Eric: It’s an interesting phrase. Um, and I saw that you guys asked this question, and I thought about it for a minute, and then I forgot to think about it again. But but there’s a phrase in, I’ve been a student of Zen Buddhism, and, um, there’s a phrase in Zen, take the backward step and it’s basically you, you…. The backwards step is sort of you turn your attention around and point it kind of at yourself.

Jean : Oh, wow.

Eric: And so to me, when I think about an insidewink…. I first think about that, i think about it’s an it’s an interior thing. And then as I’m saying it right now, I think that, you know, oftentimes if we wink at someone, right, it’s done in a, it’s done in sort of a slightly mischievous, uh, playful kind of way. Right. And, and if we’re going to approach change, as I just said a minute ago from a puzzle perspective. Right. You wink when you’re doing puzzles, right? You know, you’re having fun. There’s a little bit of an element of it to that. So I would say those are the couple of things that come to mind for me.

Alison : Oh, that’s that’s great. That’s so you. Know, it’s perfect. And um, finally do you want to ask this one?

Jean : Sure. So if you had your choice, would you prefer cake, pie or ice cream?

Eric: I would prefer, Um, cake and ice cream. I actually think the two go very well together, as does pie and ice cream. Um, but I well, okay, actually, now that I think a little bit more about this, if I could only choose one. If you’re going to make me only choose one, I would choose pie. It’s because my partner, Jeanie makes the best banana cream pie in the world. It’s my favorite dessert of all time, and she makes it for me on my birthday, so if I could only choose one, it would be that. But I do love chocolate cake and vanilla ice cream.

Alison : It would be, it would be Jeanies pie though, right?

Eric: Oh, it would be hers…yes.

Alison :  it wouldn’t be a random pie.

Eric: I love banana cream pie across the board, but hers is absolutely, in my mind, the best I’ve ever had.

Jean :  that’s not an easy pie to make,  the custard. The cream.

Eric: Yeah. She she really figured it out.

Jean : Kudos to her.

Alison : That’s great. So if people are interested in you, they can go to your, website. Right. Eric Zimmer. Yeah?

Eric: actually,oneyoufeed.net

Alison : Um, and and do you offer classes or do you do individual coaching with people?

Eric: Um, I don’t do much individual coaching anymore, but yes, we we run a program called Wise Habits, and it’s a program that brings together, um, behavior change science and, um, uh, principles of good living. And we will be running that in January of this year. So. Yeah.

Alison : Fantastic. You were so wonderful. We’re so happy to have you.

Jean : Your life is such a blessing.

Alison : Yes. And thank you so much.

Eric: I need to talk to you guys, like, every couple of couple of weeks to just start to start to feel better about myself. This is great. Thank you so much.

Alison : So wonderful. We and we can’t wait to hear more of your podcast. Thank you so much Eric.

Jean : Thank you Eric.

Eric: My pleasure. My pleasure.

Alison : Have a great day. Okay. Bye bye.

Alison : That was so enjoyable, wasn’t it? Like he just. I could have talked to him for so much longer.

Jean : I was just going to say I had a whole… I had some other questions I wanted to get into with him, but um, wow..what A fountain of wisdom. And he’s so real..I really enjoyed him.

Alison : And I, you know, when you talk about the Serenity prayer and the wisdom to know the difference, you just kind of say that like, yeah, the wisdom to know, but, like, that’s the truth. That’s where my… I think that’s where my struggle is, because I sometimes think I can change everything or I can’t change anything. Hmm. Do you know, like, I sometimes get stuck in that loop and I like that he is… Some of the things he said really affected me. Like, I almost got teary eyed when he said, the belief in yourself will be diminished if you keep just sort of, you know. And there’s something so, I don’t know, sad about that to me. Like it really affected me. Like how many times have I done that?

Jean : But the great thing is also is that he says, you can absolutely turn that around.

Jean : And it does take consistency and um you know, and I think that when we can help each other, like when you see if I’m a little low…Or vice versa, that we can boost each other up.  But not, make it like our project or, oh, you know, Uh, this gets to be a pattern…but just to go, you know? Hey,you could think something different right now.

Alison : That’s right.

Alison : And I, I, I really like that, he says it’s individual like meditation may not be for everybody.

Jean : Isn’t that so true?

Alison : And you realize that is true. Like it’s okay if…. Because I think there’s sometimes this, um, with talking to people. Sometimes people are very passionate about their journey. And sometimes I think, I walk away thinking, oh, I should be doing that. That should be me. Like, but really it’s individual. And I really like that he, that he said that.

Jean : Right, And he gives..Have you checked out his website?

Alison : Yes. Fantastic.

Jean : He has so many great offerings on his website. And obviously his podcast is chock full…

Alison : his webiste – oneyoufeed.net

Alison :  Yeah. And I have to say, for Linda, I know Jean, said, bouye, and you’re going to call me up and say, boy, but you’re wrong. Okay,

Jean : Also, Linda, if you’re listening, I know you have the Serenity Prayer on your forearm, and i always love seeing that.

Alison : Does she?

Jean : Yeah.

Alison : I didn’t know that. I got to check that out, now I’m going to.. I’m going to read it. Well, that’s…

Jean :  That’s enough of about Linda.

Alison : Exactly. We love Linda. All right, you guys, we love you all. We really enjoy this. Thank you so much. Have a beautiful day.

Jean : Bye.