Podcast Episode 46: Chaz Ebert

JEAN: What are you doing?

ALISON: I’m starting right now. Hello.

JEAN: That is so you —okay?

ALISON: Why is that so ME?

JEAN: I get it, I get it.

ALISON: Why is that so me?

JEAN: you love to get the bloopers.

ALISON: I love the bloopers, and I love just doing it. I just love doing it. Okay. All right.

JEAN: I love just doing it with you. I mean, doing this interview with you because I’m so enamored by this woman – Chaz Ebert, who wrote this phenomenal book called, It’s Time to Give a FECK.

ALISON: That’s right.

JEAN: And FECK is f e c k. It’s an acronym for forgiveness, empathy, compassion and kindness.

ALISON: And, uh, you know, Roger Ebert is similar  to Alex in a way…

JEAN: I thought the same thing.

ALISON: Like iconic, someone we all knew. Our parents knew- we would watch Siskel and Ebert all the time, you know, reading his reviews in the Chicago paper and it just and then, um, you know, now he transitioned, he’s he’s in another realm and Alex is another realm. And you and Chaz are these women that are taking their husbands sort of work and their reputation and working with that and, and helping other people. I found it very moving because it reminded me of, of, of a situation like with you.

JEAN: I felt the same way. Alison, I really related to Chaz on so many levels. So I’m really looking forward to this interview.

ALISON: And she’s good friends with Marlene McGirt, who we did the interview  with We Spark. That’s how we know about Chaz and this book. And the book is fantastic. It’s a nice, easy read. And it’s, it’s it’s keeps you engaged because it’s very current. Current events is what she talks about and she talks about how to really rethink what’s going on in the world to allow forgiveness, empathy, compassion and kindness.

JEAN: Right. And it’s using those beautiful qualities of love to have a greater unification with everyone around us.

ALISON: That’s right, that’s right. So I can’t wait to hear what she has to say, right?

JEAN: Yes. Me too.

ALISON: Okay, here we go.

CHAZ: Yes. So Hi… I’m, Chaz, and you’re Jean and Alison, right?

JEAN: I’m Jean,

ALISON:  and I’m Alison….Hello.

JEAN: Oh, this is so great to meet with you via zoom. And, um, your book is so very, very special.

ALISON: It’s beautiful.

CHAZ: Hold on…Let me just tell him, I think somebody is going in and out of the door. I have to tell them. Don’t do that because it’s going to…

JEAN: Okay.

CHAZ: All right. Let me just. Yeah. One moment.

CHAZ: Okay. I think that that should be good now.,

ALISON: It’s so wonderful to meet you. And Marlene McGirt is one of our great friends and speaks so highly…. And you guys just went to the convention?

CHAZ: We did, we did. We were there… I was there all four nights, but she flew in one day for the…actually she was, she flew in actually, because I was giving a talk about my book at the University Club, and she happened to be here, and I was really glad to take her to the convention. So yeah.

ALISON: It’s so exciting, and while we were reading your book, I could not, you know, your husband has been, you know, so iconic and so loved by my family and so many people. And I just couldn’t help but see how it resonates with Jean’s experience.

CHAZ: And when Marlene told me that she had been on your show and I said, you know, I just felt like a there’s like a definitely a kinship there. Yeah.

JEAN: 100%. And when I was watching the movie of Roger’s life, I have, been I have been saturated with you and your family the past two weeks. I know more about you, which has been so phenomenally inspiring to me. But, um, so many things, Chaz… Like Roger was 50 when when he married you. Alex was 50 when he married me.

CHAZ: Wow.

JEAN: Yeah, they both love movies. And I have to tell you, Alex would love watching your husband and, you know, his show, his movie critic show. So we would sit together.

CHAZ: And we loved watching your husband show because we both loved words and knowledge and everything. So it was okay,– so we have even more in common than we even thought.

ALISON: Right. That’s right.

JEAN: Yeah.

CHAZ: Well, andthe thing about you both, I love that you have this mission for bringing more positivity into the world because we needed more than ever.

ALISON: Yes we do.

JEAN: Yes we do.

ALISON: And that’s why your book… When Marlene told me, the title has got me.. Right there… your title got me.

CHAZ: Although I know that people think the title is to be in your face, but it’s not because it’s just an acronym, right, for those qualities. And and it does make you snap to attention a little bit, I guess so.

JEAN: Right. Yeah. It does. It does call your attention because you wait… Oh, this is a four letter word, but it’s not THE one that my brain thinks right away, it’s as you say, it’s a four letter word for love. And, um, so can we start off and just tell our listeners what inspired you to write this book?

CHAZ: So I started writing the book, I think, around the time of the pandemic. Actually, the idea for the book was before that time. Um, and really the book I started to write was not, “It’s time to give a fECK.” It was more something about, um, some of the emerging writers and film critics and artists and technologists that I was mentoring, because I started this program…. Uh, we call them, I think you know, Ebert scholars, Ebert interns, and, uh, actually, Robert Redford, the year after Roger passed away, and Roger passed away April 4th, 2013, and in January of 20, 2014 at the Sundance Film Festival, Robert Redford told me that he’d like to start, um, a sort of an internship program in Roger’s name at Sundance, and he asked for permission to do it. And of course, I gave him the permission. But before then, I was taking some other upcoming film critics to Sundance and other film festivals around the more more so film critics like women and African Americans and Hispanic Americans who didn’t get a chance to go to some of these film festivals. And so Robert Redford noticed. He said, why don’t we call this, you know, Ebert’s? We call them Ebert Scholars. I forget the first name of the program. And as I was writing these things, I wanted to actually write about those people. And and so there in the back of the book.

CHAZ: But then the pandemic set in and I started noticing that people were… Anxiety was increasing, people were getting more isolated. People said that they felt that they didn’t have a connection to other people. And I started knitting together stories of of where people were good. Because what the thing that Roger and I really, the thing that really brought us together, we both loved goodness in people. And we said that when we watch movies, things that make us happy or sad were not things that were bad. But when people were good, that really touched our hearts and we both felt the same about that. So during the pandemic, I started changing what I was writing about in this book. And it, I started coming out with more things about examples of compassion and kindness and and empathy. You know, the empathy is, Roger said, movies are a machine that generates empathy. Yeah. And let you put yourself in the shoes of another. So, um, it’s just, you know, it sounds like a long answer. And it is because, to tell you the truth, sometimes I don’t know why I wrote the book. And so it just seems like I started writing. I was writing another book, and then something took over. And so I ended up writing this book.

ALISON: So I love that though, because it means that you there was a muse or an inspiration or an angel that was sort of tapping you, saying, hey, what about turning this way?

CHAZ: Yes Alison, that is the truth. Because when I was first writing the book, I said, who wants to read a book about goody two-shoes? W,ho wants to read something where people are telling them you must be kind or you must be this? I didn’t want to make it seem like I was preaching or doing anything to to people. And, uh, but then the stories here are certainly, you know, there are some really, really difficult stories in here too. So I sit there, you know, what’s wrong with the a lesson here or there or what’s wrong with being kinder or more compassionate?

ALISON: And, uh, for someone that hasn’t read the book, it’s almost as each section begins with a personal story or a current event or something that you’ve read about. And I love the way you invite us to look at it differently or look at it another way, like, um, the football player story. I remember that so vividly, but I didn’t know all the details you had found. And, Emmett’s mom that broke my heart and and also learning about, um, you know, from my point of view, I just knew your husband as this man that gave these great reviews, and I’d see the movies he said yes to. But the fact that you talk about his goodness.

CHAZ: Oh, yeah.

ALISON: Like it picks up the veil a little bit. And I find that I found that very moving.

CHAZ: You know, one of the things that I used to tease him about is that for someone who actually had such a kind and generous heart, he had to go through life with the moniker of critic.

ALISON: Right. Right.

CHAZ: And there’s nothing wrong with film critics. Film critics– that’s a fine, fine field. But for someone who wanted to bring more goodness into the world to be called a critic, I just thought, okay, that’s a cosmic joke on you.

ALISON: That’s right. How did you pick the stories that you introduce each section with that? And that must have been an emotional process.

CHAZ: So  the personal stories I put in, because as I was writing the book, I said, I don’t want to make it sound like I am putting myself above anyone and saying, you do all of these things, I’ve achieved this and and you haven’t, and this is what you need to do. I wanted to have somebody say it, as somebody said, some skin in the game, and I wanted to show that I too just, you know, that I wrote the book for myself as much as I wrote it for anyone else, because there are some people in the book you talk about, like Mamie Till-Mobley, Emmett Till’s mother, who when her son went down to Mississippi in 1956, I think it was and was murdered. And his and they, you know, tied stones around his neck and put him in the river. And on the third day, his body, actually, it almost sounds biblical. His body rose from the depths of the water, and they were able to see how brutally he had been murdered. For his mother to have the presence of mind, to say, I’m going to have an open casket funeral so the world can see what they did to my son. Right. I don’t think that most people would have had either the courage or the presence of mind to do that while you’re grieving, and it was that brave act of a mother that actually caused more journalists to write about a black boy in Chicago. At that time, you didn’t see those stories that often, and she actually had attracted because of the empathy of other mothers. Thinking no matter what color they were, they could relate to that. And it really caused it to become really a galvanizing force in the civil rights movement.

ALISON: So I had to read that twice because I have two children and I, I it gives me chills even to think about it. I got so affected by that woman doing that. Yes. It makes me very emotional even just thinking about it. The pain that she must have been through in that church and in those moments in order to shed light for the world to see. It’s so unselfish that it is….

CHAZ: Wouldn’t you know, I was thinking most of our instincts would be… You just want to hide away. You want to go, you want to make yourself as small, to get away from the world, to shut out this cruel world.

CHAZ:  She opened herself and opened up and invited us in to try to stop this kind of cruelty from happening to other people. And another thing I love about this story. Roger and I got to meet Mamie Till Mobley.

JEAN: Wow.

CHAZ: And she had become a school teacher, and she said God took away her son, but he gave her all these other little boys and girls to be, to feed her life with, to to fulfill her her life and to teach. And she it was just I mean, there’s so many really wonderful things about what happened to her and her life afterwards because of the sacrifice made by her son. Um, anyway.

JEAN: Y,ah, that’s that was one of a very powerful story that that you share. And, you know, your book is so vulnerable. And it for me, it really opened up, um, as reading, reading some of your stories, reading like the Amish, the shooting at that Amish Amish school and how they (clearing throat) excuse me. Um, how they dealt with pain and actually embraced it and turned it around..

CHAZ: Yeah, they went to the house…to  the man who broke into that Amish school, the Nickel mine Amish community in Pennsylvania. And he separated the boys from the girls, told locked the boys out. And I hate to even say it, you know, he killed the girls and the families to go over to the widow of the killer of their kids, to say, I forgive you, I forgive him, I forgive him. Where does that come from? (coughing) excuse me.

ALISON: You’re the same,

JEAN: You know, it chokes you up,

CHAZ: It really does. There were for years I could not even think about that story without crying, without bursting into tears, Roger and I… that was one of the things that we would talk about. Where does someone find the divine, almost divine, depth of compassion or divine depth of forgiveness? The divine. And and I do believe that, you know, and when I was in graduate school, philosophy was one of my favorite subjects. And whether we were talking about, you know, Locke or Rousseau, whoever, whomever we talked about in philosophy class, I would always disagree with the philosopher who said, that man in the state of nature is a beast. He is the worst. He all of his instincts. I would agree with the philosophers who said, man in the state of nature is good or wants to be good, but sometimes they want Us to help set out the the circumstances to show their best selves rather than their worst selves. And I still believe that. And I know it may sound a little, you know, a little Pollyanna ish, but no, I’m pragmatic, I, I was a trial attorney. I’ve seen a lot of really horrible things, but I’ve also seen a lot of really good things, too. And that’s why I love that you you look for them and you find them and we, we celebrate them so that we can bring more of that out.

JEAN: Right? Right. And and there’s that phrase that says what you focus on increases, increases. The more we focus on seeing the good in others and certainly we’ve all we’ve all had forgiveness lessons and and I -to your point about it being almost divine, it is the other phrase is to error is human, to forgive is divine, and to bring that higher power of love and forgiveness into a situation. It does turn lemons into lemonade. And yeah, you give so many great examples and I love the the little journaling you have at the end … That’s very clever. It’s like a little workbook.

CHAZ: Little workbook at the end of each chapter. Yeah, yeah. Jean, you know, the publisher was the one I have to give the publisher credit for, suggesting that I put it at the end of each chapter. I wanted it to be a separate book, because as a kid, I was an avid reader, and I used to say, books are my friends, and I would not write in my friends. I would not write in a book. So I didn’t want to have a book that people wrote in. And they said, and they said, but people want to do it as soon as they read it. You give them an example. And I said, but could they do it? Could it be a separate workbook? They said, no, people want it right then and there. And a lot of people have actually said they like writing in the book immediately afterwards, because they said if they had to go get another journal or something, they may not do it. But if they’re if it’s in their mind, they especially in the chapter of forgiveness, more people have told me they started keeping a list of people that they either wanted to forgive or they wanted to ask for forgiveness from.

ALISON: So, i thought it was interesting. Your four qualities are forgiveness, empathy, compassion, and kindness. And I love the way… and maybe you could just help our listeners with this, describing some of the differences in the levels, because I really– you made it so simple for me because I’m like, well, isn’t empathy kind of the same as compassion. And how does kindness fit in? Could you just give us a quick rundown of that? Because that was great.

CHAZ: Yes. And I say that forgiveness is, and this is a really quick run through of it. You say forgiveness is the art of, and it is an art, or the act of accepting that maybe people are doing the best they could do at the time, and you want to relieve them from the…. you want to relieve relieve yourself from the burden of feeling a victim to something that someone’s done to you. So forgiveness is as much for you as it is for the other person. I’m going to come back to that one. Empathy is putting yourself in the shoes of another person, of someone different from you, of another race, age, political persuasion, Ethnicity, uh, and just trying to understand what it’s like to be that person. Even if you disagree with the person, just having some feel for what it’s like to be live that person’s life. When you have empathy, sometimes you develop compassion. Compassion is the feeling for wanting to help alleviate maybe an obstacle or alleviate the suffering of others. By putting yourself in their shoes. You maybe develop a compassion for their lives because maybe it’s something you didn’t understand before. Kindness is the action step. Once you empathize with someone and you’ve developed compassion for them, and you want to help alleviate the suffering or obstacle, or you want to uplift them in some way, kindness is the action step of what you do to alleviate that suffering or to uplift a person.

CHAZ: So that’s how I distinguish them. And the thing about forgiveness is I still love talking about Archbishop Desmond Tutu, because he gave me such a good lesson in forgiveness that I didn’t ,I didn’t see forgiveness that way. I always thought forgiveness was something you did. You were being magnanimous. And I’m going to forget I’m a big person, so I’m going to forgive you. And he said, no, forgiveness also is as much for you because it relieves the weight of your shoulders of feeling like a victim. It takes away that need to want revenge. And he talked about, you know, how he and Nelson Mandela, when they had the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, they lost so many friends who did not want them to forgive people who had committed egregious acts under apartheid. And he said, but he realized without forgiveness, there was no path to redemption. Without forgiveness, there would have been bloodshed without forgiveness, he said, I would have felt like I remained in prison.

ALISON: Wow. And, you know, that’s a huge worldwide event. But taking it down, like, even a little more simpler, when  allowing yourself to forgive, you don’t even have to tell the other person. You don’t, you know, and that’s what your book really reminded me. And the other thing that you said is self-compassion, is something that happens not in a vacuum. And the whole idea of you, it’s you really opened me up to thinking about things in a different way. And we’ve read a lot of these books, Chaz, for all. And really, I loved it. It really like and I think the forgiveness piece is so crucial because there are people that I haven’t forgiven exactly for what you said. And then this book allowed me to think I can do it right now.

CHAZ: Oh, I love that…Alison, I love it.

ALISON: I can release it right now, you know, and let it be. And and it was excellent. So I wanted to thank you.

CHAZ: Thank you. And, you know,  in the thing that where I talk about also the self-compassion part and, you know, for years I really didn’t talk about the fact that I had been a teenage mother. And when I was in college and I, I graduated, I think when I was 16, going on 17, went to college, found that I was pregnant. And back then it was like, shame, shame, shame on you. You, you know, this was really such a no no. And I felt that I had let my family down. Mhm. The eighth of nine children, I was the first one to go to a four year College. My two older sisters had gone, I think, to like maybe a nursing program or something, but not like a full college nursing program. And everybody was so proud of me. And then I thought, I’m going to have to drop out of school. I’m going to I can’t tell. Nobody’s going to like me. And they’re going to think I’m such a bad girl and da da da da da. And I was so down on myself. And when I was in the hospital for an unrelated reason, and the doctor said, you know, young lady, you’re pregnant, you know. Does your family know? And I said, no.

CHAZ: He said, well, I’m not letting you out of this hospital until you call them. And at that time they had these big phones by the bed. And he brought the phone to me in my hospital bed, and I had to call my parents, and, um, they all just rallied around me like angels. My mom, my dad, my sisters and brothers, my my my my college roommates. Everybody was so wonderful to me. No one made me feel ashamed. In fact, everybody loved my son when he was born so much, and the programs that I endowed today for young people are a direct result of that, paying it forward, that people did for me. Yeah, people sometimes, especially young people or emerging people, you don’t even have to be young, you can be just emerging, uh, just need a hand. They need, you know, somebody to give them a hug or somebody to give them an encouraging word, somebody to invite them for a meal, somebody to tell them, yeah, you can do it. Or or you’re a good person or I love you or something. And that’s what people did for me, and I, I mean, even to this day, I’m so grateful for that.

ALISON: Yeah. That’s so beautiful.

JEAN: It’s so inspiring because it really helps you realize that we are beings of of great love… We really are and when we share our humanity with another person, you know they can of course not accept us, but I do think more and more people are like, oh yeah, hey, I get it. You know, let’s, let’s work on this together. And, and again, that brings unity and a deeper feeling of connectedness that I know was your mission and your beloved Roger’s mission.

CHAZ: Yes.

JEAN: I’m curious. Um, so thank you for all that. So, did you and Roger have a favorite movie?

CHAZ: A favorite movie together?

JEAN: Um, like a movie that you felt that also, um, demonstrated empathy. So something that you thought, oh, this movie is really about Compassion and love and all of that.

CHAZ: Okay……I am monumentally unprepared to answer that question because there’s a rule, but I can’t think of any.

JEAN: Okay, well, we can brainstorm because I have a few. Yeah. Okay. Well, I, I love Forrest Gump. Oh….

CHAZ: We love Forrest Gump.

JEAN: Yeah. So did Alex and I.

CHAZ: We love it, you know because, and people would say no, but that’s they’re kind of making him seem like, you know, he’s someone who’s not very bright. And I said, no, I love Forrest Gump. We both did. Because first of all, seeing Sally Fields as that mother… Stepping up for him and making sure that he gets, you know, in the world. And then, the way that he looks at people and sees the good and sees the good….

CHAZ: You know, even though he (Rodger) had to review the movie, uh, in his job as a film critic, we also went on a date and just went to see the movie so that he didn’t think about reviewing it or anything, just to see it again. Yeah. We love, Forrest Gump.

JEAN: Yeah, I love it. Do you have a favorite movie, Alison?

ALISON: Um, well, I, I do love Forrest Gump, too. You know, there’s, um, there’s a lot of movies that I’ve really loved. I was thinking the other day about the movie The father that we saw with Anthony Hopkins, where he’s suffering from Alzheimer’s. And it just it really moved me, I think, because I’m reading a lot about Alzheimer’s and sort of and it really was it made me feel such empathy because, you know, he’s (Anthony Hopkins) fabulous and it allows you to really be in his shoes with a bit of the confusion and misplacing identities of people. And it’s really, It’s beautiful for that reason that it opened me up and I thought, wow, this is really a truthful experience.

CHAZ: Yeah, that was a that was a beautiful movie. And you know what.. What you’ve made me realize I need to sit down and put– if I’m going to be talking about this book. Yeah. I got to put together a list of movies. I have a whole list of movies that I love that are good, that I want to recommend to people.

ALISON: Yes.

CHAZ: There are movies that I watch that make me want to go out and, you know, commit an act of kindness or, you know, an act of kindness and goodness. And I have to put together a list. So I promise you, if we’re going to have a whole list.

ALISON: We would love that. Can you also maybe maybe the two of you, it might be interesting because you, you know, had such husbands that were so well known. You said the grieving process is personal.

CHAZ: Yes.

ALISON: Cn you maybe explain what you meant by that because, you know, we were so inundated, at least my age, with the Kubler-Ross five stages. And here’s the stages you go through. And yet I felt what you were saying was, you know, it’s a personal journey.

CHAZ: Well, and I want to hear what what Jean has to say, but I the reason that I wrote it in that in the book is because people had like a one year rule. And like after a year, Roger passed away April 4th, 2013, and by the next year, in 2014, people started asking me, well, are you dating? Are you doing this? And I would say, no, not yet. And or, um, what do you mean? They would start asking all kind of things. And I said, you know what? It’s only been a year. Oh, yeah, but it’s. But it’s been a year. Uh, no, a year is not enough time for me and for for some other people, especially men seem to kind of maybe start dating and get married sooner than women. I don’t know whether that’s that’s true or not, but I know for me, and then there were some women that I met five years down the road, they still weren’t quite ready. So I said, it’s just so individual for everyone. And I know the Kubler Ross, you know, seven stages of grief or whatever, that’s valid as well. But, Jean, what what about you?  I mean, grief is just so individual.

JEAN: I couldn’t agree more with what you just said, Chaz. Um, I too, after a year of some people were like, oh, are you dating? You know, and I….

CHAZ: And are you over it or whatever, you know.

JEAN: And I was like, that’s for me, like you said, it’s so individual. That was the last thing…. A year was just sort of coming out of the shock.

CHAZ: Right.

JEAN: of living without (Alex) like it was, you know, and um, and there are days that I think of Alex so much. He’s just in my awareness and I’ll be thinking about him and thinking memories. And then I come back.

CHAZ: About thinking, or are there some days that you actually feel them? And, you know, he’s kind of around somewhere?

JEAN: Definitely.

ALISON: Do you have that too?

JEAN: Do you ha

CHAZ: Oh, yeah.

JEAN: Yeah…Well, you know, how long were you a caregiver to to Roger from his diagnosis?

CHAZ: So for, I would I say the last seven years seven.

JEAN: Okay.

CHAZ: Of his life because um, he had actually, when we actually when we first we married and we were together about 24 years, we got married in 1992. Um, but we had been dating for a few years before then, and he told me when he proposed, he said, I have to tell you something. He said I had cancer once before, and odds are it could come back sometime. So before you give me your answer, I want you to know. And I said, oh, you know, I asked what kind of cancer and when was it? And he said, you know, I’ve been I as far as we know, it’s gone. But you never know once you have cancer. And um, so 1992 and I think in 2002 I think it came back, but then that was treated, it was thyroid. So once they take out your thyroid that’s gone. Uh, that cancer is that’s the one of the easiest cancers you can have, because once they take it out, if it hasn’t spread,  you remove the thyroid. That cancer is gone. But then the salivary cancer came back in 2006. So from 2006 to 2013, those last seven years is when he had, you know, the the hardest problems with it. And so the first year, 2006 to 2007, he was in the hospital for almost the whole year. So in and out. So but after that, even though he lost his ability to speak, once he got out of the hospital and got rehabilitated, he was able to write again, to go to movies, to go to the opera again, which we both love, to take trips with our grandchildren. So even though his life was different, it was not like it was a lingering or a sickness. So it wasn’t like a long caretaking process.

JEAN: Yeah. And how brave of him to share his story, you know, unlike his partner in business, Mr. Siskel. He he Gene Siskel. He he was more private about his health.

CHAZ: Right. I understand both.

JEAN: 100% because I think I’m a little more of, you know, Mr. Siskel…  and Alex, I was very surprised that Alex was so forthcoming with the pancreatic cancer. Um, but…

CHAZ: And how long… Was his from his diagnosis to.

JEAN: It was just under two years. Mhm. And it was all through Covid. So um, which is, which is you know, a lot of people have their markings in time. Oh that’s pre Covid. This is after Covid. But for me it’s more it it’s more around Alex’s…. oh that’s before the diagnosis. Oh that’s after, oh that’s before his transition. That’s after. You know? Covid was really in the background of my life and and as I know you know, like caregiving…

CHAZ: It’s all consuming.

JEAN: And Alison is an amazing caregiver also. And she’s helping a friend right now. And it and it lives in your brain. You know, it’s in your consciousness. Like how are you feeling? How are you, you know, moving through the world. How can I help you? Um, and I and I think this, this book that you wrote is also a great book to just have with you…. When you’re in a doctor’s– because it’s very uplifting your book and…

CHAZ: So thank you. Yeah. Because when I wrote it, I finished it actually during Covid and after Covid when things start opening up again, I reread some of the chapters and I realized I had been so influenced by Covid that some of the chapters were too daunting and too much of a downer. And so I tore them up and rewrote some of the chapters to make them a little more evergreen, or to make them a little more hopeful.

ALISON: Yes.

CHAZ: And so and I and I want to say something. So. Alison, so I just got, I’m not a psychic… My mother was, but I got some intuition. Your compassion is just… Where does it come from?

ALISON: I love people, I love people. My father, my father was a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter. I think he even knew Roger. Um, years ago. And he was a newspaperman, and, um. Uh, he just wanted. He was left on a doorstep and never found his parents. And that’s why he started reporting. And he was the, I think, the most compassionate person that I think, i just have it in me.

CHAZ: Wow.

ALISON: What what  initiated you asking?

CHAZ: Because I can feel it. yeah. And when Jean was talking. You are such a good listener. And you listen with such compassion. And it started pouring off. And I said, I want to know where did this come from? So every now and then my mother, you know, she would teach. She would teach us a lot of this stuff that she did the, the whatever, the woo woo. But every now and then when I pay attention. And she said, most people are intuitive. You just have to be really observant and you have to really go inside and wait and see and just be quiet. And then it just, you can feel it something.

ALISON: So thank you so much, Chaz.

CHAZ: I feel from you in so strongly.

ALISON: Thank you. You know, I, I really do love people and I really like just seeing you. I feel like we know each other because, you know, I think everyone wants the same thing. You know, safety, love of their children, love of their family, um, to be seen, to be heard, you know, and I, I that’s why I was so moved by your book. Is there something like, for our listeners that you could say, if we’re just going to start today, what are some small acts of kindness that we can move with just today, like just off the top of your head.

CHAZ: Okay, I’m going to say a small one, but I’m also going to say a big one because I usually don’t say the big one. I usually say the small one and something as simple as saying hello to your neighbor, or hello to a friend, or hello to someone, a coworker that maybe you don’t like that much and you have been kind of avoiding. Give them a smile and say hello and see how that turns things around. Maybe not immediately, but to me, we are in our devices so much and we’re looking and we won’t look people in the eye. And I just say sometimes, just stop, look somebody in the eye smile and say hello. It can change someone’s day and it can also change your day. The big thing that I’m going to start saying is something that I want to advocate doing. I want to start, um, and maybe, maybe you’ve heard me say this, some FECK dinners where I have people from different political persuasions around the table, but with a moderator, with someone like,you know who knows how to handle it…you don’t just put a very one from a very extreme side on one side and a very extreme side together. People more in the center or, you know, a little bit somebody right, somebody left Democrat, Republican, and start having people eat and talk and say, why do you feel this way? Explain to me, I want to hear I want to do some deep listening and tell me why. And not that you’re trying to convince me, and I’m not trying to convince you. I’m just trying to understand. And so sometimes invite someone who you don’t agree with  you, or just talk, talk to you.

ALISON: Do you know Chaz in Europe years ago? I don’t know whether it’s still happening. There was a whole society where you could rent a person, like a book….  it was a people library. So it would be like, um, someone that had very strong beliefs this way, would spend a half an hour getting to ask this person, that had beliefs where they just questions.

CHAZ: I love that.

ALISON:  And it became this big movement in Europe. And I thought, that is so– that moved me so much— like people right, left, black, white, um, tall, short. Anything that you could think of that would, that would create a question and you would spend a half an hour. And I thought, that’s so beautiful, and that’s what you’re doing. If you can start these dinners, where do you live?

CHAZ: I live in Chicago.

ALISON: My gosh. Well, if you do that, we’ve got to come.

CHAZ: Okay, you know what? I will invite you. And we are going to do it. We want to try to start…. But this is you know, time is getting away because this is already September,and we want to try to do it before the elections.  um, but you know what? Maybe we should let the elections go and then do it after that. I don’t know, but, um, I would just love to do that. And I know that sometimes  during holidays around, um, Rosh Hashanah or Easter or something, some religious groups sometimes will get together and do something similar. But I like to do it with people who really, and like I say, I wouldn’t advocate putting extreme right and extreme left together for the first ones it would be somebody who’s more open and willing to at least listen.

ALISON: I love that… Um, you know, we just have one quick final question, and it’s just an interesting question. What do you think… you know, insidewink is the name of our podcast what do you think that word means?

CHAZ: For me, and I think of an inside wink, an inside wink is when I feel that I have knowledge or I have the goods of something that’s happening, and it’s something I’m going to convey to someone else, and it’s kind of a wink at them. And I get that they… I see the light bulb go off in them and they are ah, they got it. Ah, that’s the inside wink. We both got it. That’s what I think of as an inside wink.

ALISON: That’s perfect.

JEAN: Yeah,

ALISON: That’s exactly right. That is perfect.

JEAN: very beautiful.

CHAZ: It’s perfect, everyone is right.

ALISON: Well… Everyone sort of is right. But I love that. That’s really beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so much.

CHAZ: Okay. And wait a minute. I think you were going to ask me another question. I really want your question.

JEAN: Okay. Do you like cake, pie or ice cream?

CHAZ: Ice cream.

ALISON: What Flavor?

CHAZ: I love it because, I said if there’s one food that I could just have, but  it sounds so terrible to say it, but even if I’m really full and somebody offers me ice cream, I could eat it. If you offered me cake, I’d say, oh, no, I’m sorry, I love cake, but I know I can’t have it….  i’m full. I’m satisfied. But ice cream, I don’t know, I think….

JEAN: What kind of ice cream ?

ALISON: Yeah. What flavor?

CHAZ: That’s where it gets kind of boring. Vanilla Haagen-Dazs is my favorite ice cream. But the second favorite is black walnut. And this one? You can’t go many places. Black walnut. Well, black walnut is probably actually my first, but because I can’t find it, I usually end up just getting vanilla or pistachio.

JEAN:  we love the same one.

CHAZ: Oh, really?

JEAN: I love black walnut.

ALISON: Also, pistachio to the moon.

CHAZ: wow… Okay.

ALISON: We’re very connected. We met in a previous life.

CHAZ:  thank you. Can I ask you one question, or is it time for this to end?

ALISON: No, no, no, you can keep going.

CHAZ: So what is your your overall like your goal from here on out, with the podcast or with what you’re trying to do, in like—because I want to tell you a project that I’m working on.

JEAN: Well, I would answer what our goal is, is just to keep interviewing people that are inspiring, that are doing great, you know, really good things in the world. And it doesn’t have to be monumental. You know, we just small acts of kindness. Um, as you know, it’s like such a big rippling effect, so.. What would you what would you say, Alison?

ALISON: I guess, like fous, it would be like, sort of allowing, uh, to spotlight, you know, we have people that make lasagna for their neighbor, and then we have somebody like you, and then we have, like, someone that makes a you matter card or, you know, and passes them out. And then we have, like, Val Kilmer, do you know what I mean? So we’re trying to show a spectrum, because sometimes I feel like all the big stuff gets highlighted, which is beautiful. But I really think that these small, not small, um, quieter warriors are so important too, you know, and so that’s we’re really just trying to get more listeners and more people.

CHAZ: So one of the projects that I’m working on now is directing my first movie. It’s a documentary called, Wellness Warrior, and it’s about Deborah Szekely , who is the founder of the Rancho La Puerta Spa and the Golden Door Spa. She started it when she was 18 years old. She’s 102 years old now, and she still lectures once a week in Tecate, Mexico, at Rancho La Puerta. And I’m so excited about this because she also talks about going out and just doing things and being good. And she talks about making a friend, and she talks about reinventing herself every ten years. And when she was 90 years old, she said she called herself, she said, from 90 to 100. I want to be the wellness warrior. I want to encourage people to take their health into their own hands and to start doing things. So when she was 100, I said, now that you’re 100, what is your what do you think that you want to do? And I thought she was going to say, well, now that I’m 100 I don’t have much time. But that’s not what she said. She said, if you’re healthy when you’re 100, you’re likely to live at least 20 more years. So I have to start thinking about what I’m going to do from age 100 to 110. And she said, the most one thing to do is make sure you always introduce young people into your life. So as your friends die out, you still have more friends.

ALISON: I love that.

JEAN: I love that too. I have a couple of girlfriends that that have passed on, and they were in their late 90s and they were people would say, Mary, what keeps you so young?, and she was like 101 when she passed away.. And she said, I surround myself with young people.

CHAZ: Yes, yes…

ALISON: Chaz, when you’re doing that, we would love to talk to you again.

CHAZ: Okay. All right.

ALISON: Maybe even with her. Like, we would love that. We would love to, you know, whatever…. If that could work out…

JEAN: Yes, we would love that.

CHAZ: Okay, I will try to put that together, because what I’m doing..  the film is, actually the short of it is going to debut at the Chicago Film Festival October 26th.

ALISON: Congratulations.

CHAZ: So Deborah will be there and then three other people from the movie. Norman Lear, you know, passed away when he was 100. He’s in the film, but I have the late, one of the ladies who started La Leche League for you know, woman who  nurse (breast-feed), Marion Thompson- she’s going to be there. She’s in her 90s. And I have another woman in her 90s who’s going to be there. Who  started this company with her daughter, and her daughter’s running it. And these women are so dynamic. I’m so excited to have them there. So maybe when  I have them all together, maybe we can do do something and we can all talk about.

ALISON: I would love that.

CHAZ: They’re all women who, like you, look for the good in the world. All three of them said, that’s what you do, look for the good. Highlight the good. Spotlight the good. Spotlight the people who are doing things that you want to see happen in the world.

ALISON: Right.

CHAZ: Anyway. Thank you.

ALISON: You’re inspiring and I love… I just really, am so grateful that you did this. Thank you so much. Thank you, Marlene! So really, Chaz, congratulations. You’re a little… you’re a spitfire.

JEAN: Yeah. You’re a force for good.

CHAZ: Yes. Thank you. As we all are…So thank you

ALISON: We’ll talk again. Okay. Have a great day.

JEAN: It was so great to meet you.

ALISON: Bye.

CHAZ: Bye bye.

JEAN: Oh, that was so nice.

ALISON: Wasn’t she… You know, she’s smart and on it. And her energy is so great. And I really enjoyed the book. Like, it’s such a, it’s such a nice read.

JEAN: Yeah. I think it speaks to the power of parables. You know, hearing stories, seeing them on movies. And then, you know, even if it’s not this exact same situation you’re going through, you can as she speaks about empathy, you can put yourself in someone else’s shoes and go, oh, you know what? I get it. I don’t… I get it. I can release my judgment around something.

ALISON: And, you know, I like the fact that she was so inquisitive and asked us some things.

JEAN: Yes,

ALISON: That really speaks to her and her curiosity and her wanting to just be very present.

JEAN: Very much so. And I loved when I said about you being a caregiver and how much compassion you have. She totally chimed in Alison. And she jumped on my bandwagon and was like, yes.  You can totally feel that about you. You’re very deeply compassionate.

ALISON: That that literally almost made me cry. I got so emotional because I felt like someone was like inside me, seeing me, you know what I mean?

JEAN: Like that’s intimacy.

ALISON: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.  It was very, very much intimacy. And that really moved me that she kind of stopped and said, can I ask you a question,… Like that… I think it’s very interesting when— because I’m very curious and I really do love people and I love asking them things, and it’s so funny when someone asks me something back… You know, it’s like I’m not prepared.

JEAN: Well, it showed me the fact that she acknowledged your compassion. I mean, I see it on a day to day basis, and here she just intuits your deep, beautiful heart, Alison….  and it takes someone,  well the fact that she wrote a book like this, devoted to these qualities of of love. I think they all fall under the umbrella of love. You know that she she sees it in another.

ALISON: So I have to hug you. I don’t even care. I’m hugging you. There you go.

ALISON: And I feel the same.

JEAN: Okay, that’s enough now. Okay. Alison. All right.

ALISON: I feel the same way, Jeannie about you… Were very, you know, having a friend, having companions and just a sense of community. And I felt like I really knew her in a way, it just was was a great time.

JEAN: So that was so please pick up a book of, um, the book, “It’s Time To give a FECK” , because we really enjoyed FECKing around with Chaz.

ALISON: That’s exactly right. It’s time to give a FECK –  elevating humanity through forgiveness, empathy, compassion, and Kindness” by Chaz Ebert. Yeah, really fantastic.

JEAN: Right so…

ALISON: Well, have a beautiful day. And do do something sweet for yourself.

JEAN: Yeah. And just smile at someone.  that’s all you got to do. Just smile.

ALISON: Say hello….All right. Bye.

JEAN: Bye.