Podcast Episode 45: Henry Shukman – Original Love

Jean: I said hi first.

Alison: Hi. Uh, Jean’s going to say hi now.

Jean: I just did.

Alison: I know, you were excellent. Good job.

Jean: So you’re alone this morning or this afternoon at your home?

Alison: It’s so different because my husband’s at a fitting for a commercial, and my son is teaching kids. Um, I think it’s robotics today or something at a little school, so. Yeah. It’s so nice.

Jean: You have the afternoon to yourself.

Alison: I’m dancing around and, like. Yeah, just doing my bits. It’s very good. And you’re. What are you doing? Today you’re going to do. You’re going to go. You’re going to be busy, right?

Jean: Yeah. I’m going to get my hair colored this afternoon. And I finished some work on our podcast.

Alison: I love that.

Jean: So, uh, now we’re getting ready to interview Henry Shukman.

Alison: And, you know, okay. So do you meditate?

Jean: Not consistently.

Alison: No. Me neither. And I used to be more consistent. And his book, Original Love, is all about the power of opening yourself up to meditation, to awareness, to love. And, um, I’m really enjoying the book.

Jean: Yeah, It is such a beautiful book, you know? Yeah. So this is going to be a great interview. We’re so blessed to have this gentleman on our podcast.

Alison: That’s right. And then, um, and then I’m going to try to meditate more.

Jean: Same. And he’s got a great app called The Way. And I did download it, I love it, it’s so easy to use and I really love it.

Alison: Really?

Jean: I know I said that, but..

Alison: Will you show me?

Jean: Yeah, I’ll show you. Sure.

Alison: All right…Great. Okay, so here’s Henry.

Henry : Howdy. Howdy.

Jean: Hi,

Henry : Great to meet you guys. Thanks for having me on the show.

Jean: Henry, we are so, we are so excited to have you on our show. And, um, I just wanted to say how beautiful your book is. Oh, it’s absolutely gorgeous. And if you wouldn’t mind, can we just start off with with two questions? Um, why did you write this stunning book on meditation, and how did you come up with the perfect title, Original Love?

Henry : Oh, thank you so much. Okay, I’ll tell you, I was, um, about four years ago, right at the start of Covid. Actually, just before the start of Covid, I’d been doing a really busy round of teaching in Europe and America. And I live in New Mexico, even though I’m a I’m a Brit and I went up to stay in a cabin that some friends of mine have up in the mountains, way up in the north of New Mexico under these 200 foot cliffs. It’s incredibly beautiful place called Brazos. And I was going to just rest, hike a bit, you know, hang with my friends and just take it easy. And instead, the first morning, I had a cabin to myself, you know, they they had their own place as well up there. And the first morning I was making coffee and I was making my oatmeal, and this sentence came to me and I just had to write it down. And basically for the next 12 days, I filled four of those yellow pads with just freehand and and it wasn’t like I was writing all the time, but every day, maybe 4 or 5 hours, just like nonstop. It was like taking dictation. And and I realized that I was kind of trying to sum up everything that I learned and been actually trying to share without realizing it, exactly, in the ten years I’ve been teaching meditation, and in the 30 years or so that I’ve been practicing meditation myself.

Henry : And so it just kind of poured out of me. But I realized that it it made sense because it was kind of a it was kind of what I had learned in terms of healing and this thing we call awakening, you know, and like coming in a deeper presence, deeper and deeper and realizing how much we’re part of the world and not separate from it. And so it just kind of came out of me and I felt, oh my God, this is just a it was fun writing that, you know, but I don’t think there’s anything to it. And then I spent maybe a year typing it and editing it and cutting it and writing new stuff. And then I thought, well, I’d better show it to somebody. So I showed it to my wife, who’s not usually a fan of, I mean, you know, she’s kind of semi interested in meditation, but not the same way I am. And she said, man, this is this is great, this is great. This is what we’ve been waiting for. And then I showed it to another friend and he really liked it. And so, you know, basically it came I got around to sort of, uh, sharing it with an editor and an agent and, and boom, it took off like that. Now I’ve just forgotten. What was the other question?

Jean: Oh, so it was come up with the title originally the title.

Henry : The title, the title. Yeah. I’m so glad you asked me that, because basically, you know, I know as a teacher of this stuff that I’ve noticed a lot of people have feelings of unworthiness, feelings of shame. You know, it’s so common, you know, and often, you know, when people start meditating, you know, to whatever extent they want it in their lives, little hits through the day or whatever it might be. Just a little taste now and then. Often they just don’t find it comfortable because they hit up against this sense of unworthiness and even worthlessness. And it’s tragic. And I don’t know whether this is true or not, but I suspect some of it might come from the old Christian idea of original sin, that we’re somehow born bad, you know? And I’m not a theologian, so I can’t speak to the wisdom of that as an idea. But just on the face of it, I think it’s a terrible idea, you know?  and so I said, well, damn it, I’m going to I’m going to put my idea out there, which is original love. It’s like we’re born loving beings. And, you know, there’s a lot of research now in neurology and neuroscience that, yeah, we’ve got deep wiring for caring and sharing. It’s deep in us, you know. And yeah, it’s true. We can also be really aggressive and violent. But it doesn’t take a lot to open up what we’ve already got, which is a deep capacity for loving and, you know, of course, loving each other and other beings and loving this world. But even more than that, I think there’s a kind of, you know, this is maybe a bit woo woo, but a kind of fundamental love that is just present. And we don’t always feel it, for sure, but we can learn to feel it more. And that’s my mission, is to help people discover that they are already loved, whatever they do, there’s like an original love. So that that’s the title.

Alison: Wow. Well, we can wrap, we can end on that note. No, it was, it was it was perfect.

Jean: So beautiful. And and, uh, the person that wrote your foreword, you know, he he nailed it also in, in, um, in conjunction with Original Love, he talks about being homesick, like there’s this chronic homesickness… Isn’t it so true if we just remember, if we can fall back into our original love that really is so powerful.

Alison: And release like the longing of feeling, of longing and lack and fear. Yeah.

Henry : Exactly. And, sorry- go ahead.

Jean: No, Please you.

Henry : Well, I was just going to say that like that, that just the little tiny hits of that original love. Tiny little micro doses, you know, here and there, looking at a sunset, just, uh, even something as simple as just actually taking the time to just watch the stream of water coming out of the kitchen tap. It’s beautiful. If we just stop a moment of hit, pause a moment, and those little tiny micro doses of the love of this world that we’re in, the fact that it exists, you know that, that is the that is the healing, the balm that heals, our lack, our sense of being alienated and separate. You know?

Alison: You know, loneliness is considered an epidemic now. And I felt that your book, even though meditation is solitary. It, it it tapped into allowing us to heal that loneliness. Can you explain that dichotomy a little bit?

Henry : Yes. I think, you know, a lot of people, they take up meditation, mindfulness because they’ve heard it’s good to do and they think they’ve got to. Basically, it’s all about me and my mindfulness on my own, and it can seem even lonely. You know, I got to do reps at the gym and I got to do breath reps in my mindfulness, you know, and I think that’s wrong on a few levels. One is like actually part of the whole purpose of Meditation is to discover how connected we are. We are totally connected all other all other humans, we basically have the same equipment. We got the same human mind, same human heart, same human body, more or less by and large, you know, we’ve got the same emotion system, you know, and actually we share that with all the mammals. There’s some research that all mammals have seven emotions. They all feel, whether you’re a bat or a blue whale or a human being. There’s seven emotions we share. I mean, to me that blows my mind, but it’s it’s like it’s how we’re not alone, and in meditation, we’re discovering more and more the, the connectedness that we’re just kind of made of, you know, our very bodies as its molecules and atoms and subatomic particles, just like everything else in this world. And, you know, they’ve come to this form that is my body and my brain and all that. But it’s made of the same stuff as the whole planet, you know?  so the more, the more we just tap into a sense of connectedness. When we’re doing our mindfulness, we can really discover it and we can- there are practices for recognizing it more clearly. You know, the really and it comes home, we get these hits. Wow. I really am not separate like I thought, you know, and it’s it’s such a beautiful thing to discover.

Jean: Yes, I, I totally agree with you because I think what you present in your book is that is exactly what you said. Meditation is not, it also like this serious alone, it you actually make it feel very, um… You actually say it’s a good thing for you to sit and be still and quiet, and it’s good for the people around you. Yeah. I thought that was so great, Henry. And, yeah, you really take the seriousness out of meditation.

Henry : I think it’s supposed to be nice, right?

Jean: Yeah.

Alison: Yes.

Jean: Like, I look forward to my coffee or my tea, and it’s just not a thing like to check off on your to do list.

Henry : That’s right. It’s, it’s a, it’s a little moment for you, for us to be with ourselves, you know, and, and it’s about a kind of self-kindness, you know, because when we tap into self-kindness, I’m going to I’m going to be with myself and give myself a little bit of time. It may only be three minutes. That’s okay. But it’s time just to be with my very own being, you know? And and that is like a nourishment. So when we then, you know, go to the kitchen table and it’s morning and maybe I’m a bit grumpy or something, but no, I just stopped for a moment. And like, I’m grateful to see my wife and my children have all left home. I see the two of them, but occasionally they’re around or friends come by or whatever. I’m more open because I’ve got that little bit of connection to my own deep, deeper being, and therefore I can, i’ve got more to share with others and my colleagues and and team at work. You know? There’s there’s more, i’m more ready to be open, you know.

Alison: You know, I, I liked this book so much because I felt that I’m not like you. Like I would meditate and then I’d fall off. I’d say, oh, I got that. And then I’d fall off the, you know? And I had convinced myself, I’m not good at this. I’m never going to get to that end. Peace.

Jean: Quiet my mind.

Alison: And I like that you were like, there is no end game here. Like it isn’t about, you know, it’s not the price is right. This is just, you know, just be quiet, you know?

Henry : Yes, yes, yes.

Alison: I found so liberating. I thought, oh, I can do that, you know, because I think the idea of awakening has been so ingrained as, as, like you got to get there. Can you tell us what you, what you’re feeling of awakening is?

Henry : Yeah. I’d put it like this. Um, it’s possible to go through little shifts of many kinds, and one kind is when this weird thing can happen, and many people have tasted it without meditating, ever. It’s a human capacity where we suddenly just discover this different sense of things, where our sense of being a separate person suddenly goes quiet, and we just feel we’re part of everything, and we truly belong in a much more radical way than we normally realize. So that’s awakening. Great. Fine. Good. But there’s and, you know, that would be a deep taste of original love from my perspective. But there’s so many kind of more ordinary ways that we can taste the same original love. Just a moment of like, hey, I’m not feeling so good, you know? And I’m just going to take a minute to just check in with myself and just notice. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course. You know, my son’s having a hard time and I’d forgotten. Or my coworker is going in for an operation or something. I’ve even it’s not in the top of my mind, but my body knows…  and then I just give myself a moment and I realize, oh, yeah, I’m. I’m a little troubled about that, you know? And it’s because so often we feel, and I’m speaking from my I should speak for myself, so often when I don’t feel so good, I don’t want to know about it.

Henry : My first impulse is to distract myself. You know, I might just pick up the phone because it’s anything not to notice this uncomfortable feeling. So I’m sort of saying, hey, that’s very understandable, but actually, let’s flip it and instead give ourselves a little bit of attention and a little bit of love and a little bit of, yeah, loving awareness and then I can be with a difficult feeling. Now I’m saying this because while awakening that discovery of a great unity that we’re part of is a real thing, and meditation can help with that. But it also happens out of the blue, you know, without in whatever circumstances, you know, um, it’s not the only game in town. It’s like, it’s not like we should be aiming for that. It’s because right here, now, we can find tastes of this original love. And anyway, even if people have one of those big sort of shifts in, you know, cosmic unity and all that stuff, they’re going to still, it’s like, it’s not like life’s over. They’re still going to be doing the daily grind. And yeah, they know they’ve seen this thing that’s different and it’s fantastic. But actually to really live an ordinary life that’s full of care and love. That’s the real, if there’s an end game, it’s the endless game of trying to live more aware and lovingly.

Jean: Oh, that’s so beautiful.

Alison: So thank you for sharing that. That’s beautiful.

Jean: Do you, uh, Henry, do you feel that the climate of our consciousness now is more ready to receive a book like, As Beautiful as yours? Because I certainly do. I feel that when the outer world is more chaotic, we must go within to find our true ground. So do you notice that?

Henry : That is so beautifully put. I you know, my feeling is like this, that that I believe that I do. I think and I think it seems like things are kind of hotting up, both geo geo climate wise and social society in society. It seems like they’re heating up and and more and more people are recognizing, hey, this isn’t right. You know, we’ve got to we’ve got to change the way we interact with each other. We’ve got to change the way we interact with our beloved mother, this planet, you know, and I do think that there’s something about things getting maybe worse that can actually be positive, that it makes it a bit more urgent and there’s more pressure to change. And I feel there’s an explosion going on of awareness, because if you look at like, you know, I started I started on this path I’ve been on in my mid early to mid 20s, i was 24 actually, And and I was, um, I was a little bit fringe, you know, to be meditating regularly. Yeah, a little bit weird, you know, and and now, you know, the numbers are staggering. It’s like maybe 150 million US adults have meditated. You know, that’s pretty mind blowing. And maybe somewhere between 20 and 50 million try,  to do it regularly. That’s spectacular. And so I’m like saying, hey, if you’re doing that anyway, let’s make it nicer. Yeah. You know, and let’s bring, let’s bring in some of the sort of, you know, the more the kind of, you know, the, the most beautiful stuff that you can find in, in your little bit of quiet time every day.

Alison: That’s that’s wonderful. Can you explain to me one question? Um, you talk about a communal imagination in your book. And I’m wondering, is that the same thing as sort of a collective unconscious? And, uh, can you describe that a little bit? Because I think a lot of I’m just seeing sensing that more and more these days.

Henry : Yes. You know, I’m not an expert on it, but I would say it probably is basically the same as that idea of a collective unconscious that like, if we go kind of a little deeper into our own awareness, our own consciousness, we start to get to these sort of layers that just everybody has, you know, and I think it was Jung, the great psychologist, who came up with the idea of the collective unconscious. And I think one of the things that gave him the idea was he was doing this research into shamanism around the world, and he found that, you know, Inuit shamans were encountering all these different entities and, you know, animal spirits or whatever on their shamanic journeys. So were shamans in Siberia, so were shamans in Brazil. And some of the old Celtic shamans of the olden days reported the same thing. It’s like, how can that be? You know, these totally different, uh, geographic zones, but they get deep enough. They’re finding the same stuff. And so he came up with this idea, I believe this is the origin that, you know, there’s a level in our very own minds, each of us, where we share a kind of, I don’t know, some call it the power realm. You know, I think it’s religious in a way, like all the saints and the power figures in African religion and in South American religion, they I think they’re all down there probably, you know, doing their own stuff.

Jean: And that was such a good question, Alison. So, Henry, I’m really enjoying, not only did I am I loving reading your book, as I’ve said, uh, your app, your meditation app called, The Way. This is so great. I can’t thank you enough because it’s easy. It is fun. You give so many wonderful tips and let’s try it this way. And, um, and now I talk to my friend Mark, who I’m like, oh, I did my sit this morning, and, uh, and I love your app.

Henry : Oh, I’m so happy to hear it. Thank you. You know, the you know, the thinking for us was behind it was just, in a nutshell, was like this… Our research showed that there’s 3000 meditation apps and basically all of them, yeah, isn’t that something? You know that right there says something, you know. Yeah. But but basically they’re all typically they’re like libraries of great content. And so you’ve got, you’ve got maybe 100 or 2000 courses to choose from. And not everybody likes that. They get a decision fatigue or decision paralysis. Like which one should I do. So we decided to just go all in. It’s a big gamble on a totally different method and approach, which is like there is one pathway and you follow and every you, every time you’ve done one sit, boom, the next one loads up for you. You just hit one button and it’s going to lead you on a long journey into some of the things we’ve been talking about. You know, ten minutes a day is what it asks. But you you don’t have to spend ten minutes figuring out what to do. It’s just boom, ten minutes you’re in, you know, straight away you’re in.

Jean: Like, a little gift every day. I, you know, you look forward to- oh, what what is Henry going to present today? And, um, oh, Henry, I did want to ask you, i was looking at my notes for a second here, just going back to mindfulness, because I was always under the impression that meditation was another word for mindfulness. And, um. And maybe we did talk about this a little bit in our interview, but, um, when you talk about absorption, can you talk about that in

Alison: The Four Inns were so fascinating.

Jean: You give four inns –  mindfulness, support, absorption and awakening. Um, but can you talk a little bit about absorption?

Henry : Yeah, sure. I’ll just let me just say like a little bit of framing of the whole thing. Like basically most people think meditation is just mindfulness, right? But in the, in the wisdom traditions that I’ve trained in, mindfulness is viewed as like a foundational practice, but it’s not actually the end. There’s more we can do. And mindfulness would be basically being more present, being more aware of what we’re experiencing right now. Like right now while we’re talking, I can feel the soles of my feet. I can feel my seat. You know, I’m aware of the room around me and your beautiful faces and and I can still talk. So I’m aware of more aware of now, you know. And that’s just great. And that may be all somebody wants. But there is more. There’s like the connectedness and support in the second in, or in the app, actually, we call it zones. Zones one, two, three, four. And then absorption the third zone. That is when there’s a gear shift when we’re sitting and, you know, instead of it being like, hey, I’m trying to stay aware, I’m trying to stay focused on whatever it is, the breath or sounds around me or something.

Henry : There’s this weird shift, and suddenly it just becomes easy and it becomes beautiful and kind of clear and calm but energized, and it just feels so good. And I think that’s like a flow state, you know, that when athletes and musicians and artists, I think basically everybody gets into flow states at times when that suddenly, you know, it’s kind of effortless and we feel very aware without having to try at it all. And it’s sort of beautiful. You know, there’s stories of like, basketball players in the midst of some difficult play, and suddenly it’s like time almost disappears and they don’t know how they did it, but they did this super difficult thing. Yeah, it’s kind of it’s kind of like that with, you know, we can taste that in being quiet with ourselves. And then it’s even more sweet because it’s just you don’t need anything. You don’t need a basketball court, you don’t need a violin. You don’t need to be listening to music. It’s just you, you know, with yourself and your own being. And suddenly it becomes this timeless, beautiful, peaceful, but energized awareness.

Alison: Do you ever do you ever get crabby when you don’t get a parking spot or something because you seem so calm, like, does it,  do you have that kind of stuff still going on in your life or are you…? And then if you do, what are like, what’s a tip right then when you feel like or maybe you don’t?

Henry : I Would say , I’m definitely a work in progress very much, you know, um, but I, it’s true that it’s, I do so way less than I used to. That is really true. And I think the, the secret of it, is not minding.. It’s just not minding. And for me that’s come through basically my heart has got more and more open over the years. And some of that’s because of this practice, I think, and some of it is because of different kinds of heartbreak I’ve just been through that, you know, has made me have, you know, were very difficult at the time, but somehow they helped to open my heart more. I believe in heartbreak as a as a gateway, you know, and we don’t wish it on anyone. But it can really it can, it can it can kind of make life richer in the long run, you know. So I believe I tend to like anyway, I want to be more a little bit more helpful. Let’s see. So a tip, let’s say I’m getting like…You know. Well I might I might go through a little bit of a.. And then I can just switch gear and like, okay there’s a bigger view. I might be 5 or 10 minutes late and actually it’s going to be a good meeting anyway, or whatever it is that I’m, you know, doing or if I’m, if it’s not a meeting and I’m just going to the store and I’m going to be home ten minutes later, it’s really is it a big deal? No, it’s not a big deal. There’s a bigger picture. There’s always a bigger picture.

Alison: Right. And I love the idea of not minding. And that really is a hard thing, because I think sometimes my brain likes getting on that horse and riding it around town, you know? But I think that’s right. My heart will be like, yeah, really?

Jean: Yeah. And to me, what you’re saying, Henry, is that, you know, just don’t judge the present, you know, that was your experience.  Oh wow, that had a trigger for me. And just letting that be, what that was. Um.

Henry : That’s that’s beautifully put. Exactly. Don’t judge. Yeah.

Jean: And and that’s so easy. hahahah

Henry : Well, I’ll tell you for me, you know, what I feel is always allowing. Yeah. Allowing. You know, there was a teacher who said to me, at the start of a retreat, he said, well not just to me, to the whole retreat. He said, there’s three things that matter most on this retreat is a multi-day, deep retreat. You know three things. Allow, allow, allow. Mhm. And that really helped me and has stayed with me.

Jean: Yeah.

Henry : You know, can I be a person who allows more than his inclination is. Allows what arises. You know and I’m I’m learning. I’m I’m still on the path. Totally. You know.

Alison: I think some of it’s age too.

Henry : That’s probably true. You know, we just…

Jean: As we do, you know, have more life under our belt.

Henry : Yeah. Yes.

Jean: I think we just like we as they say, you know, you choose your battles and.

Henry : yes, yes. As a young man, I just flail into every battle I could, you know?

Alison: That’s right. Yeah. It’s like us. That’s exactly right.

Speaker4: Yes.

Jean: And I have a dear friend who always says, Jean, there’s power in the pause. Yeah.

Henry : That is so wise. I love that that’s that’s summing up what I’ve been trying to say in three words.

Alison: Power in the pause. Yeah. I love when you describe the tapestry of life. And you begin to see that there’s this, you want to live between the stitches?

Henry : Yes, yes, yes…Letting the light,  the light comes through a bit more.

Alison: That made me, that brought tears to my eyes for some reason, some of this book, really some of the questions you asked and some of the ways you touched me, evoked an emotional response that I wasn’t even aware of. Like, you know, you can watch a sappy TV commercial and, you know, it’s manipulative in that way and you’re going to be crying. But this all of a sudden I’d be like, oh, like, I was really taken aback by it and I just got chills… You did a really good job of that.

Henry : Well, thank you so much for sharing that. I’m really happy to hear it, because in a way, as a writer of this particular book, that’s that’s what I probably wanted more than anything, you know? But I didn’t know whether I was doing it because the whole thing came out. So, so sort of by itself, you know, and I sometimes wondered, maybe it came out of that collective unconscious we were talking about, or at least sort of a deeper place somehow. Yeah. So I had no idea really how… I still have no idea how it’s really going to affect people, but I’m happy to hear when it does.

Alison: Some of the questions that you you’ll just all of a sudden in the middle of a chapter, start to ask these like a series of questions, and I go, oh my God, you’re blowing my mind, henry, this is great. Do you know? Like it’s really… And like, the idea of a koan. Is that how you say it?

Henry : Yes.

Alison: That’s fascinating to me.

Henry : Yeah. These Koans are these little questions and phrases that are in the Zen world. Yeah. And a lot of them are, you know, 1200, 1500, 2500 years old. And and they’re often really strange. You know, there’s a famous one. What is the sound of one hand, you know. And what does that mean? What? I don’t even know what that means. But sometimes, you know, people can just have that in the back of their mind. They’ve read it somewhere or heard it, and all of a sudden one day they just get some little ah, wow, there’s some wisdom in there that I can’t fully explain, but I feel it. Yeah, it’s sort of it stops me in my tracks in some way. Yeah. And my ordinary path through life gets just interrupted. Paused…Just pause.

Alison: It’s Pointing to something?

Henry : I believe so, yeah. Something about who we are.

Alison: It’s. It’s like your brain goes. Wait, what? You know, they’re really interesting. They’ve really stuck with me. That was really fun. Thank you for those.

Henry : Oh. Thank you. I’m so glad that that was your experience with them. That’s what I hope. Yeah.

Alison: Oh, good. Yeah.

Jean: Well, Henry, I, you know,  we’ve sort of reached our time even though there is no time…hahah..  Uh, well, we would like to ask you, what does inside wink mean to you? That’s the name of our podcast, so what does that..

Alison: What do You think it means?

Henry : I think it means, that there’s a little bit of a joke being played on us in this life, that we think we’re so important as me. And actually, we are important and we are precious. But it’s not the me that I normally think. It’s like we’re all ready, okay? We’re always already okay… That’s the kind of cosmic joke that we get caught up in not realizing.

Alison: That’s that’s a great answer. Thank you for that. That’s a great answer. That’s true. Wow. It’s amazing because that’s so you. That answer is perfectly from you. So thanks. That’s great. And do you like pie, cake or ice cream? We’re just curious.

Henry : You know, I had a brain injury about about four years ago and had a post-concussion. And I’m better now, but I can’t have gluten and I can’t have sugar, at least not a lot of it. So I’m not great, i mean, I’ll tell you what I would love of is a gluten free, sort of fruit based pie of some kind. You know?

Alison:  yes, we knew about your brain injury, and Beth told us that, and it just is, um, that was very powerful. And I’m so glad that you’re feeling better.

Jean: Yes. Henry.

Henry : Yeah. Thank you. I’m really kind of happy it happened because it… You know, they say the longest journey is from the head to the heart. Mhm. And that head injury actually sped up my journey.

Alison: Wow.

Henry : Because I could, I could live here in my heart better than I could in my head. And I hope I can keep that now that my head’s getting better.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah.

Jean: Exactly. And and isn’t that our mission? Our soul’s mission is to live from our hearts. Yeah. And the mind is helpful,  but it is living from our hearts,  and you certainly have given us a beautiful roadmap

Alison: with Original Love. Thank you so much. And thank you for, thank you for talking with us. We really, I feel so great right now. Thanks to you, so thank you.

Henry : Well, so do I, thanks to you guys- hahahah

Jean: This has been such a treat. And thank you.

Alison: So we’ll stay in touch.  I can’t wait to read your next book, whatever comes out next time.

Henry : Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So good to be with you guys. Thanks so much for having me.

Alison: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Have a beautiful day.

Henry : You too. Bye bye.

Alison: That was the best interview –  Henry and Original Love, I just…. Yeah, he was amazing.

Jean: He is amazing. And I love that he brings a new, for me anyway, he brings a new, um, inspired desire to to start meditating again because, I used to meditate pretty regularly and then I, I didn’t do it, but I think he brings a new yea-ness to it,  not such a seriousness to it, you know.

Alison: And that it’s such a, a generous gift you can give to yourself, which is what it used to feel like a chore. Yeah. Like, okay, you got to do it. Okay? Now you got to do five minutes, you know? But he is just very loose about it and very relaxed. And you can just feel his, he thinks, he loves it and you can feel that enjoyment.

Jean: 100%. And a big thing for me is when he would say, you know, celebrate the minute you notice that you have wandered off into thought. That’s the point of celebration because you already know. Okay, now I just go back to my breath or one of the other pointers he gives you to to tap to bring back your awareness to your breath. Um, I feel so fortunate to have had this interview.

Alison: I’m going to I’m going to remember that, and just I’m celebrating right now that my brain went off track.

Jean: because my brain is like 4th of July. That’s right. I should be applauding like every…

Alison: Woohoo! Here we go with our brains. Well, thank you so much. And Original Love is really worth it, and his app. Yeah.

Jean: His app is great. I’ve been using it. So thank you. Henry.

Alison: Thank you so much and we hope you have a great day.

Jean: Bye.

Alison: Bye.