Podcast Episode 35: Machiel Klerk

JEAN: Is our theme song playing?

ALISON: It’s playing under just about now, and then it fades out. You know, the show today is going to be a very exciting interview, don’t you think?

JEAN: Absolutely. We are interviewing, um, Michael Clarke.

ALISON: You did that? Well, I, I could not have done that.

JEAN: He’s got a great accent.

ALISON: He does, he does. And the name of his book is Dream Guidance – connecting to the soul through Dream Incubation.

JEAN: Right. And isn’t that a fascinating title? Yeah, I think it’s very, um, catching…I, Jean, don’t think I remember my dreams. And I never really gave dreaming a lot of my thought or conscious attention that it could hold answers to my desires or questions or or healing. And now, from reading his book, I’m, i’m 180 degrees turned around, around about my dreams.

ALISON: He has a definite process to help people get in touch with their dreams, remember their dreams, and how to sort of evaluate their dreams. Which I thought was really interesting because I know I do have dreams, but they just seem like a cluster of craziness.

JEAN: You know, same, same here in my dreams, I feel are just airy, abstract activity that really don’t give me any insight. And, I am so wrong. Yeah.

ALISON: And that he says, you know that if you really pose a question and the way he has, he has guidelines to help you figure out how to pose that question. Right. You can get true insight from your dreams, which I love. I love that idea. It’s exciting to me.

JEAN: So anyway, we hope you love this interview and, uh, you’ll you’ll get a lot from it. It’ll be a great resource.

ALISON: But don’t fall asleep during the interview and dream.  stay awake.

JEAN: Hi Machiel, so great to meet you, I’m Jean

ALISON: and.. I’m Allison.

MACHIEL: hi, Allison.

ALISON: We’re already talking about dreams while we’re. We’re waiting for you.

MACHIEL: Excellent. I, I’m curious to to to to learn what, uh, what was, uh, bubbling up for you.

JEAN: All right. Well, for me, I don’t consider my dreams of any importance. And I thought to myself, wow, we’re going to get to interview this author and this will be a whole new awakening for me about my dreams. And it truly has. And I am going to really give my dreams some some attention now because  if you were to ask me, I do not think that I remember that i have dreams, I’m sure, but I don’t remember them, and I don’t even try to remember them. I usually go, that was crazy. That didn’t make sense. Thank God I’m awake now.

Speaker3: One of those.

ALISON: Right? Right.

MACHIEL: But I love this notion that you, uh, that you started with, oh, dreams. Uh, like many people, they discard dreams. They don’t think it’s important. Uh, we don’t live in a culture that, uh, values dreams. Like many indigenous cultures, people in the morning ask, what did you dream they would rely on, on dreams for, for their path through life? And, uh, of course, there are many ways that you can connect to the deep self, uh, intuition, yoga, meditation, just, uh, being a kind person. So it’s not that, uh, that dreams, uh, is necessary, but it can be such a valuable tool in, uh, in life if you know a little bit how to listen and be with them.

ALISON: Your, your, your process, I thought was really amazing about, um, how to ask the right question, how to do a little ritual. And the question thing was challenging for me because I kept thinking, no, that’s that’s not that’s not open ended. That’s not alive. That’s not, you know.

MACHIEL: Yes.

ALISON: Well go ahead.

JEAN: Yeah. Mikhail, I was curious if you could before we get into that, I just would love our, our listeners to just hear. What got you interested in dreams and thn. Yeah, that would be great.

MACHIEL: Yes-  like many things in life that have a deep impact. Uh, this it’s either, uh, pain or love. Mhm.. I was in deep pain, I had unresolved heartbreak of my father who died when I was ten, and our culture and family didn’t know how to grieve, and I didn’t even know how much unresolved grief I had until I started tending to it. I was stuck in my life in my early 20s. I didn’t know what to do. I started smoking way too much weed, uh, and sit on the couch,  which made me even more lethargic. And, um, so I was in a pit… And by chance, I stumbled upon the works of Carl Jung, who provided a way of thinking, and imagining the dream world as an expression of your own psyche. And so I got a kind of a psychological x-ray of what was going on inside of me. And there I learned a whole bunch of things from my shadow parts, things that were, uh, destructive, uh, characters showed up that brought me in a certain direction. So the dreams were a lifeline that I found, and I climbed out of the pit, and then I stayed connected to this lifeline because it had shown so much compassion and guidance to me that, uh, my life had turned around, that I’m eternally grateful to the world of dream and its inhabitants.

ALISON: And then how did you come up with your process then about the question in the ritual? Because it’s really beautiful.

MACHIEL: Yeah. And the questions is, uh, it can be helpful in general to, to learn to ask questions because questions deepen intimacy. Uh, we all ask ourselves throughout the day a lot of questions. And, uh, also they, uh, can often be refined instead of asking, why can’t they do this, then your own brain or psyche responds. Uh, and if you ask, how can I do this? You already get a different answer, right? Um, but I studied many dream, uh, techniques that started with Jung, but it branched out to, uh, many traditions around the world, and, uh, one thing I learned is that when you’re in the dream, you can become lucid. So in the dream that you know that you’re dreaming. And a lot of people have had it in some variation that you were there and was like, is this a dream? Or some people are like, oh my gosh, I’m in a dream. And then you can ask questions and you and you start learning that you live in a, in a responsive universe. Yeah. That you ask something and that the dream world shifts to, to help you. And, uh, I’m not that easily lucid. So I started experimenting with asking the dream questions before you go to bed in order to have a dream respond. And you can ask questions around love or creativity or health or anything that is is relevant to one’s life. And I noticed oh, this, this works too. And, uh, so, uh, I practiced and then I learned, oh, this this technique that’s done all over the world in all cultures. So, uh, nothing, nothing new there. But I first, for a year and a half, practiced on my own, then studied all these cultures. And then I desolated these five steps. How? How everyone could ask their dream question in order to trigger a helpful response.

ALISON: That’s great. Yeah.

ALISON: I think my favorite thing was, is, is your question alive? Yeah. Because even in life, um, it’s great to be truly curious and alive and present with the question. I think I just loved that statement.

MACHIEL: Yes.

MACHIEL: And also in, uh, even in conversation like this, the quality of the conversation is partly by are these questions really coming from a place of curiosity? Right. Uh, are they something you really want to know, or is it a bit obligatory? Uh, question. Right. And, uh, and that that makes a big difference. So yes.

ALISON: Yeah.

JEAN: And, and that I just think that bleeds into, into our life, you know, are we living life from the word you used? Obligatory. Or are we living it from a true soulful interaction? Asking questions. Being curious. Um, so I love that. And you know this sometimes the sad thing is that we’re so busy. Yeah, we don’t give that time. You know, we’re just checking off our to do list and getting to the next thing so fast, and, um, you know, so your, your book addresses so many wonderful aspects of, of life.

ALISON: What was interesting to me, too, is that there’s a lot of books about, you know, a dog means this, a snake means that. And and then you point out, you know, maybe not, you know, maybe not. If you’re, you know, this is. And, um, and I liked the dream that you had. I think you’re asking about, um, what do I eat to be healthy? And you were drinking on a beach? Uh, whiskey and coconut, right?

MACHIEL: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

ALISON: But I thought to myself, if I got that, I would have been like, well, there you go. Break out the whiskey. But you you were able to interpret it in such a great way and that that’s, is that like a talent that you have or can I get there too?

MACHIEL: Yeah. We can we can all get there. It’s it’s just somewhat of the familiarity with, uh, with dreaming and, uh, what you pointed out that a lot of books say dark means, uh,  whatever, you will be lucky. And, uh, there is some kind of, uh, maybe a general quality to a dark that in most cases it says something about an instinctual way. But then there are so many variations. Is this a dark that you had, uh, or is it the neighbor’s dog, or is the dog that did by you when you were young, or are you afraid for dogs? So it varies. Yeah. Dreams are really manifestations of your own psyche in a three dimensional environment. So in dreams and world that you find yourself in, it’s not a movie that you watch because actually in the dream, you’re, you’re in a, you’re acting in a world, um, very similar to this world. Right? And, uh, the only thing is that we take now this world for real, and then we go to bed and we sleep. And in the dream world, we take that world for real, right?

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL: And then we wake up and we take this world for real. But actually, there are these multiple worlds coexisting. We can see that from our own experience. And in the dream, you can see how that world is is a creation of your own beliefs and expectations and intent. And so let’s say this was a dream, and now the door opens up and my previous boss comes in and he shakes his hand and my own critical voice would be presented in my dream as my previous boss, who comes in and shakes his head because I associate to my previous boss that he’s very critical. Um, someone else that might be their mom, or their neighbor, or their brother or partner or, uh, whoever is critical in their life. So if the dream book would say previous, uh, your boss, then it would be quickly say, oh, it may be an authority figure. Um, but it is it’s much, uh, much more nuanced. You get further by asking, what do I associate to this character, right? Oh, this is neighbor John. And neighbor John, uh, is very jealous.  Oh, jealousy shows up as neighbor John and acts out something in my dream. And then we can learn about what? What a little bit about your own jealousy. That attribute in the dream to neighbor John, the jealousy is present. And then you can see how do I relate to jealousy or how do I relate to criticalness? And then I can shift, uh, and those dynamics play out in this reality as well. So it can just starting to think about how do I relate to Criticalness. Right. And if I then imagine our criticalness or I always get scared or I fight it, right, what other ways can I can I develop to, uh, to befriend or to understand this? And then in this reality, things also change because of course we dream work is partly just to enrich your life and you want to also live. This reality more fully, and the dream world can really help you understand what goes on inside yourself in a way that’s very hard to get to just by thinking about a situation.

ALISON: Hmm. Right, right. That’s interesting.

JEAN: Very interesting. Right. Okay. Well, can you share with our viewer.. Listeners the five steps?

MACHIEL: Yes.

JEAN: Give an example after each. That would be great. Yeah.

MACHIEL: I, uh, I happen to live in Mexico City these days.

ALISON: Oh.

MACHIEL: And, uh, recently, I, uh, met a woman who was, uh, laid off from her job, and she took some time off, uh, came, uh, came here and I asked her, what what are you going to do?

JEAN: Mhm.

MACHIEL: She said, I don’t know yet. I said, well you could uh, consult your dream, because the dream is interested in helping and educating. So um, and she was like, oh that sounds good. And she said, what can I ask. I said, first of all, what do you want to know? And that is really step one. What is what is alive in you? What do you want to know? And in her way, in her life, what is alive is- what shall be my next step, or what company, or what shall I do? And for other people. I said, how can I find a loved one? Or what if you’ve been working on your health? A question around the diet and then step two is, phrase a good question? Yeah, that is one question at a time, not how do I become rich and find the love of my life.. That is too complicated and too much. So she said, uh, well, actually, I want to know where I will apply for a job?  And the dream will very seldom say, uh, write to Walmart.

MACHIEL: hahah– and that’s your job.

MACHIEL: So. So that’s important to know about about also asking these questions. The same in love. It’s it’s not asking where where do I find my loved one? But far more, what can I do in myself to cross paths with the beloved or open up or work on my own, uh, fears? So, uh, the woman, decided to keep it a bit open and said, what is my next step? Then she did a little step three, is do a little ritual, and the ritual is, uh, anything you do with a heartfelt intention, right?  Light a candle. Sing a song, do a dance. Make a drawing….so she made a little drawing.

JEAN: And why do you think that’s important? To do a ritual?

MACHIEL: Well, I’ve studied all these traditions, uh, around the world that do this, too, whether it’s in African shamanism or in Islam or the Dalai Lama talked about it recently, he just suggested to put some form of grass under your pillow.

ALISON: Wow.

MACHIEL: And so you see all these cultures, they say do a ritual. But these rituals are all different, so it cannot be the grass or the glass of water or the candle. But it is more the dynamic in the ritual that you do something with a heartfelt intention showing to the other side, let’s say to your soul or to the Divine or spirit guide. Or if you want to believe your brain, it doesn’t matter so much it shows that you’re interested… and it’s relational.

ALISON: Mhm mhm.

MACHIEL: And  like Jung said, it’s like there’s an old 2 million year old man or woman living inside of your psyche. And you can connect with this old wisdom within. And ritual seems to be the way to do that. And and almost any indigenous culture also prescribes ritual for healing.

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL: And not to get too far off. But probably the placebo works because it’s a ritual.

ALISON: Mhm.

MACHIEL: And so placebos work, but not because you eat uh, a sugar pill, but because the person with the white coat gave you something and says, uh, take this, you will be be better, right? It’s actually a kind of a ritual in itself.. And so a ritual is, is you you pump up your expectation, your intent, your belief, your desire and if that is strong, the the other side, the response. If it’s not so strong, then you probably also don’t have a question that is alive. Because if I want to know something, it’s a strong intent, desire and intent if I’m going to ask, where did, uh, the doormen go during lunch?  my dream is going to think …..

ALISON: Hahahahah

JEAN: Because curious minds want to know..where he got his hamberger from?

MACHIEL: Yeah, the old wise woman within probably then thinks, well Machiel, maybe focus a little bit on your own life? hahah

JEAN: Like, stay in your own lane.

ALISON: Don’t worry about the doorman.

MACHIEL: Right, right, right.

MACHIEL: So you do a ritual in step three. So this woman did a ritual. Then step four, is sleep dream and write it down. Because dreams uh, if you don’t write them down, most of them evaporate. And  if you want to spark dream recall, just start writing down even a feeling and you will have two, three, four dreams a week.

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL: So she wrote down the dream and then step five is work on it. And in her case, uh, she had the following dream. She said, in the dream, I’m in a shoe store and I’m trying to fit several shoes, and then someone comes to me with a pair of shoes, uh, and suggests that I put them on. I look at them, and i’m not convinced, but I do it anyway. And then they fit like a glove.

ALISON: Mm.

MACHIEL: That’s the dream. And, uh, step five. She worked on it, and she pretty quickly came to– oh, it feels like I need to be open to the possibilities that come on my path. And also possibilities that might not feel or look like a perfect fit. I should try it and then, uh, I might actually find the perfect fit. Where i don’t expect that.

ALISON: That’s kind of amazing, I love that.

JEAN: Did she come up with that interpretation or did you help her with that?

MACHIEL: No, no… She told me.

JEAN: Yeah.

MACHIEL: And uh, and this was a woman who normally a little bit like you, Jean, who wasn’t overly interested, uh, intrigued by dreams. But uh, after this conversation, thought, because I sleep and dream tonight, anyway, let me try it.

ALISON: I wanted to know, do you think, um, I have like two things I have to ask you. The first one is, do you think that your subconscious, even if you don’t ask a question, your dream state is always answering something in your subconscious anyway? Do you think that without the questions, dreams represents something that you need to know? Do you understand what I’m asking?

MACHIEL: I think, I think so, and, um, I don’t I don’t think that all dreams do that, but if we, if we’ve been working on on something long enough, the dreams seem to come spontaneously adding to it. It’s like it’s, uh, the great creative weaver that weaves together with us the tapestry of our life.

ALISON: Oh that’s interesting.

MACHIEL: And many people have had spontaneous, helpful dreams like, Paul McCartney had the dream of,  “Yesterday” ,  Stephen King as many of his plots from dreams, probably nightmares. hahah

ALISON: Exactly.

MACHIEL: And the largest oil field in Kuwait was found because someone had the dream on where to drill. So, uh, they come spontaneously.

ALISON: Mhm.

MACHIEL: But if we turn towards the dream and ask for help, uh, we get more help. But it is almost like we need to give an informed consent, as if there is some form of free will that, uh, that says, if you want to figure it out on your own is fine if you want to have help. Equally fine, both elements, the dream seems to be totally okay with. But as life is, uh, pretty complex by times, yeah, it’s nice that there is some creative force that can can add in a, in a helpful way. So I don’t think all dreams do that, but a lot of dreams will pick up on the themes of our lives.

JEAN: Mhm.

MACHIEL: And sometimes dreams anticipate tomorrow. So dreams are not only in response to yesterday but  are anticipating tomorrow. It’s like a flower that comes out, comes first out in the dream and then in this reality.

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL:  it embodies this way into into the world.

ALISON: Right.

ALISON: That’s beautiful.

JEAN: Yeah, it is beautiful.

ALISON: Do I get to ask my second question right away? Okay. Um, my second one is,  have you ever connected with somebody in a dream? ( audio unclear – (in your book) It seems like you talk a lot about.. You even say, if you’re dating me, you’re talking about dreams.- audio unclear)  Have you ever had a dream and said to someone, okay, tonight, let’s try to dream together? Or has anything like that ever happened for you?

MACHIEL: I have tried this, but I’ve not been very successful with it. But I know people who, uh, who have the ability to be relatively easy, lucid in their dreams so that they know they’re in their dream. And I know from a man who, uh, had this experiment with someone else and that they said, uh, I’m going to show you a sign tonight in the dream. So he showed, uh, I think he did this. Then the other person, uh, would have to say, what is the sign? And they had a third person there to make sure that person “A” would tell person “B” the sign, and then person “B” would come and say, I saw this sign. And so they met up. He did the sign. Uh, he was lucid. The other person wasn’t, but he remembered it.

ALISON: Wow.

MACHIEL: And so it seems to be that we in that we that we enter and what Jung would call the collective unconscious territory where you can meet other living people and or even deceased loved ones. We can, uh, we we encounter once in a while in a dream.

ALISON: That’s that is so amazing to me.

JEAN: It really is. And after reading your book, I feel like the realm of dreams has this grand, this infinite intelligence.  and I’ve been schooled in prayer and in Science of Mind, which is affirmative prayer and using, you know, your mind and this whole other dimension, Machiel from dreams, it’s like such a huge missing piece that I never even  entertained. Um. So I love that. I wanted to ask you, I have a friend that has recurring dreams. What is that?

MACHIEL: Yeah. So those are important dreams. Recurring dreams is a shows that, uh, that the person hasn’t picked up or worked through the issue that the dream presents. Mhm. So sometimes a recurring dream can be a recurring nightmare, monster is chasing us and we keep running away. And then we feel that something, something we feel chased by something in life. And our response is running. And until we turn around and face it and figure out a better way, uh, this this dream will keep on going. Or a recurring, but a little bit less recurring is, well, I have a recurring dream that I’m locked up in jail, and, uh, it’s horrible, but it’s always in a time that I feel stuck.

JEAN: Yeah. Mhm.

MACHIEL: Uh, and so my stuckness translates to a dream that I’m in jail. And depending on how long I’m in jail usually is an amount of how stuck I feel. Mhm.

ALISON: And I think it’s, because you’re following that Dorman….I think you gotta let him go. hahah

MACHIEL: Or maybe he has the key? hahah

ALISON: That’s right, that’s right.

ALISON: That’s interesting. So you’re able to kind of see that and then figure out on your own life where that really pertains, right?

MACHIEL: Yeah….Well but everyone can and and and sure, I have, uh, paid so much attention that you get a feel for it, but if, uh, instead of asking the classic question, what does this mean? Ask the question, what is what is the experience or what are your feelings?  When you are running through the school, uh, the university to your classroom for the exam and you can’t find it and you start running even faster, and you think I didn’t even prepare for this? What is the what is the feeling? Yeah. Oh, I’m really anxious. I feel being tested, I feel unprepared. Oh, interesting. Is that something that you are at that moment also experienced somewhere in your life?

JEAN: Mhm.

MACHIEL: And it’s almost always the case. It’s almost always even if you didn’t know it, it you reflect on it. Oh yeah I have  this project and I feel tested, I feel I need to deliver. And then you can recognize those feelings in day to day life and start finding different ways of, of relating to it. But so, for the listeners and easy way, uh, what is the experience.

ALISON: Right.

MACHIEL: And then look at what, what your response is in the dream to that experience. I see a crocodile and I get really angry and I kick it. All right, so is that your experience from when you get scared?  And then you can figure out what you want to do with that..

ALISON: Right, right, well…That’s that’s not what I would do, but I totally get there. But that’s interesting because you can have, um, you I think you even talk about it in the book that, the contex, i could do a I could describe something that seems very neutral right now, and yet I may have a lot of emotion on that and that emotion is also very important, like what is the context? And that I think that is such a good tip just in life, like because people will text me and it could be complete miscommunications because it’s more about what is the experience, what is the feeling. So I thought that was very profound. Can I ask maybe this is probably a stupid question. What do you think a dream is? Like aside from being a guidance, are we tapping into in our own head? Are we tapping into like, what is it?

MACHIEL: I think it’s a brilliant question.  Really because it brings, uh, the sense of need, what is a dream? And if you take a dream, uh, whether it’s a nightmare from when you were young or a recent dream, you remember. And for everyone that listens, they can watch us, can go along. But you will notice is that, uh, you are in a dream. So you’re in a world, And in this world, you’re interacting… And Actually, you’re awake in this world– you’re seeing the doorman, you think of course, what did you eat? (HAHAH) – And you go over, you ask, and, uh. But that’s really a curious thing, that your mind is actually awake while you’re asleep. Your body is asleep, your mind is awake.  Your psyche generated a world around it in which you interact actually with this big part, with the substance of your own psyche. Criticalness, uh, whatever. So the question, what is a dream?… And that  brings you quickly to, what the dream is not? A dream is not a message from mystery source X to you, like a lot of traditions say, oh, it’s the message from the divine to you, and you need to translate that message. That is, that is in a letter metaphor, as if it’s a movie. But it’s not..  It seems that that awareness, the deeper awareness generates this world in which you find yourself, in which you live through psychological topics in your life, and you anticipate a certain delivery of your creative talent for tomorrow. So if you’re stuck in your life, you might meet a very upbeat, uh, cab driver who is an embodiment of consciousness of a beatness and getting, uh, getting going again. And if you can relate to that and befriend that state of consciousness and bring it into your day to day life, your habitual way of being changes.

ALISON: Wow.

MACHIEL: So but those are things you do as a as a result of the dream. The dreams are worlds we find ourselves in.  You interact, your mind is awake. And it appears that the dream doesn’t, uh, go away when we open up the eyes. It’s just a stream of consciousness that coexists.

ALISON: Oh.

MACHIEL: So you have waking consciousness, dreaming consciousness. If you daydream, it might come up, at night you might sink in this, and it appears that if you want to get in a flow state, that if you merge these two states that you have a sense of being in the flow.  And just like in dreams, the sense of time starts changing. So you do something and it feels, oh gosh, the hour flew by or ….. so, I don’t know where I wanted to go with that, but, uh…

ALISON: that’s good, it’s so interesting.

MACHIEL: But the question, what is a dream? Is really important because a lot of these techniques are what does the dream mean? But it’s not just that we could say ask about this reality. What does it mean? What does it mean that I talk to the two of you right now? That’s one way of interpreting this. It’s another how can I be with the two of you?. What? What does it feel like? I have a certain experience here, and, uh, certain feelings come up, and, uh, that is, uh, that does something to me, and then I can work that further. But, um, so once you know that the dream is a world there, you can you can relate to the states of consciousness, you can interpret it. You can, uh, uh, feel the states of consciousness. Uh, you can get a sense of where you are. So it opens up to a lot of ways of being with the, with the dream world that can be beneficial for this world as well.

ALISON: That was beautiful. Thank you. I never thought about it like that. Really never thought about that.

JEAN: So great.

MACHIEL: But that was because you asked a really good question.

JEAN: Yeah. Allison, you are.. You ask such great questions.

ALISON: I’m just I’m very curious you know about this.

JEAN: But she is great .. I take so long to formulate my question that ..it’s all right, but…

JEAN:  Okay, if someone is starting to, to do this process, Machiel, what are some pitfalls that they should be aware of so that they can continue and stay with the the process like 1 or 2 pitfalls?

MACHIEL: Well, what I’ve learned over the years is that, uh uh, people  do this method. They do it well. They just choose a something that’s relevant to them. They phrase a nice one question. After dream, write it down and then think, oh gosh, this has nothing to do with my question. And they dismiss it. And, uh, because the dream sometimes is very literal, but sometimes it’s like the one with the woman and the shoes and, uh, it fits. So what is the feeling, the experience? You sometimes have the puzzle a little bit.

MACHIEL: They say, yeah, I believe this method, but I don’t know if it works for me? And, and, and I’ve come to some, some and I try to tell people, uh, show up for yourself. Uh, because actually, uh, you taking your own dream answer serious is a way in which you also show up for yourself and you build, self confidence and trust because the old wise woman within will answer. It’s not even a moral thing. It’s just like you throw a stone in the air, the stone comes down and you can say, well, that’s right, because it went up, it needs to go down. But it just is. And the dream is we live in a responsive universe. That’s why prayer also works. But it doesn’t work in the way, oh, I want a Ferrari.

ALISON: Right?

MACHIEL: You need to learn to pray a little bit, uh, smarter. And, uh, and with this to the first part is, is how do you ask? It’s kind of dream prayer. How do you ask the good question? And a lot of people get there, but then they dismiss the response because the response is not what they what they suspect, or they don’t get it in 30 seconds, just to write it down and, you know, then come back later and say, gosh, you know, I had a weird dream. Can I share it? And then someone listens to it and they can and they say, well, this makes sense. Or  someone thinks I want another job and literally thinks, oh, buy with Coca Cola. Has the marketing director position open, right? It’s extremely seldom that the dream does that.  It’s more helping you get where you need to be.  And if and if people know that, then it works and it works one time, you can do it multiple times. Uh, so it’s the biggest pitfall –  is that people give up too quickly on themselves.

ALISON: That’s the pitfall in life…right?  that’s basically the truth.

JEAN: Throwing in the towel.

ALISON: That’s really interesting because, if you’re talking about the woman with the shoes, someone could just be like, oh, I’m not going to be a shoe salesman. So therefore, that dream means nothing.

MACHIEL: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  right.

ALISON: And it’s really, it’s almost as if you’re describing, art… Do you know? It’s almost like it’s, it’s evocative, like art. You get a feeling from it. You might see something different than I see. But if it’s my dream, really, what resonates with with me?

MACHIEL: And also stay more with the feeling.  Because in her case, you don’t need to be a great dream interpreter to have –  what is the feeling? Or someone offers me something that doesn’t look really appealing to me… But I try it anyway, and then it is a great fit. Okay that if you stay there and you just have to have the feeling journey and then and that’s much easier to get to then– oh yeah, a raven comes back and these sculptures very often.

ALISON: You just had me think of, because the other night I asked, I want to meet my spirit guide. (question from your book.)  And then the little glimpse that I remember is I’m holding a squirrel and I drop it, it’s like and then it’s like a baby and I’m like oh crap, I dropped the squirrel. Right. And I, and I, and I think oh it’s dead. And then I pick it up and I’m going to nurture it more. And this whole time I’ve been thinking, so that means a squirrel is my spirit guide. But now what you’re making me think is, it was the feeling of wanting to nurture it. So maybe the dream is saying you have a spirit guide- good- keep nurturing it and it will be more vibrant for you.

MACHIEL: Yes, yes. Yeah. Beautiful.

ALISON: So it’s the feeling, really. That’s great.

ALISON: Yeah. Yeah.

ALISON: That’s like a breakthrough.

MACHIEL: Beautiful.

ALISON: Yeah yeah, yeah…it’s been bugging me.

MACHIEL: But that’s great that you also kept with it and this part is can help a lot because otherwise people start googling, uh, squirrels and babies. Right. And, and then you get distracted from.

JEAN: Right. Yes.

ALISON: Right…But I think that feeling is so important. Really? You really.. You’re just so… And what I love about this talk is it’s so respectful of dreams and it’s not compartmentalizing them. I feel just a real, like I feel like all open to it, a great respect. So thank you for sharing that.

MACHIEL: You’re welcome.   And an additional step in the work is then usually also do the follow up. So now that you have a little breakthrough … Okay, I want to nurture this more, and then you then also say, oh, spirit guide, I had this sense of, you have always been here, and I’ve always held you close and, uh, uh, and then I picked you up again. And now I want to nurture our relationship. And, uh, I’m going to do the following thing, whatever that is for you. And, uh, um, and maybe, uh, come back in the dream or in this life and give me some sign that you, uh, that you, uh, heard me, uh, did notice me or something. You know, uh, figure out something so that you that you continue to nurture that, uh, that relationship.

ALISON: I just got chills. Yeah, yeah. That’s great. Thank you so much. Thank you so, so much. This has been such an exciting. You’re very low key and peaceful, but you’re very exciting at the same time.

MACHIEL: hahaha

JEAN: And yeah, you could not have written a more meaningful book about dreams and it and it’s very easy to understand. And I love your examples, Machiel, and I thank you for this new, big door opening to help my soul evolve and to enjoy this life more.

MACHIEL: Beautifully said.. Thank you.

ALISON: Thank you so, so much.

JEAN: We wish you all the best.

ALISON: Thank you. Likewise.

MACHIEL: Yes, it was a delight being with the two of you. I love your energy.

ALISON: Thank you. You’re really you’re really so special and have. Have a good night’s sleep.

JEAN: Yes. Sweet dreams, sweet dreams.

ALISON: Bye. I’m. I’m floating around after that interview.

JEAN: I can tell because you weren’t feeling that well before..

ALISON: I wasn’t feeling great before, and now I feel like I’m on a cloud. Yeah. I loved that interview.

JEAN: That was so great. I have such new appreciation for my dreams, and I really can’t wait to get home and.

ALISON: And get to sleep.

JEAN: Get to sleep… Exactly.

ALISON: That’s right. Good night everybody. Yeah, I, um, I loved his demeanor and his expansiveness and about really tapping in. I think that’s a great thing about the feeling.  As opposed to the meaning. You know, I think in today’s world, we look so much for a meaning or a media gratification or this didn’t happen. And he seemed to describe a slower process, that you tap into and you develop a relationship with and that you’re working from meaning of, not from meanings, but from real emotional content, which is so beautiful to me.

JEAN: Yes. Well said. One of my things from listening to him, is that the empowerment that the dream is your own life force. It’s not looking outside of yourself for someone else to give you an answer. This is all within you. And and it just speaks to the incredible, um, brilliance of our soul and how we are so much more than a body bopping around on a planet having crazy dreams. I mean, we are super beings with this amazing ability to tap into infinite intelligence.

ALISON: Well … what Am I going to say after that?

JEAN: Good night. Good night. Allison.

ALISON: Good night, good night. Well, we hope you enjoyed it. And we we really recommend his book. He is fantastic. I’m going to go get the book again. Wait. I want to get the title correct.

JEAN: Oh, it’s right here. Okay, I’ll say the title –  Dream Guidance.

ALISON: Connecting to the soul through dream incubation. And it’s an easy, quick read, but something that you can keep by your bedside and keep referring to. It’s really, really great.

JEAN: And if you don’t know where to start with a question, he gives very wonderful sample questions for you to start out with. So um…This is a great book.

ALISON: All right. Good night. Good night everybody.

JEAN: Good night.